[jillybean]

barmar, on 2025-March-05, 15:02, said:

I agree with this. I also think most players have never read the Laws.

In general, people don't learn games by reading the rules, they learn by osmosis from other players.

And as you pointed out earlier, the majority of players in North America want a simple version of the game.

barmar, on 2025-February-27, 16:45, said:

The impression I get is that the ACBL regulators believe that American players don't want comprehensive, detailed regulations like the colored books. They probably consider them too overwhelming and no one will read them.

ACBL regulations have generally been based more on establishing some general principles, and then applying them to specific cases. The problem has been that these principles are sometimes too vague; they made some improvements in the revisions of the convention charts and alert procedures a few years ago. But the general idea of keeping them short and general instead of long and detailed is still there.

I'm not sure they're wrong about what the majority of ACBL members want.

[akwoo]

pescetom, on 2025-March-05, 16:47, said:

If (like me and my RA and even the IOC) you consider bridge a sport rather than a mere game, then your expectations must be a little higher.
The dumber people learn by osmosis but also by any instruction that is available and by interaction with the referee, the smarter people read the rules and try to ensure they are followed.
Those who seemingly never learn (or wonder only what they can get away with) are certainly not interested in participating in a sport.

If I want to play against bridge players who are interested in participating in a sport, I have to travel at a minimum about 500 km, as I did last weekend.

We have to welcome less serious players if we want a game at all.

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2025-March-05, 23:18, said:

If I want to play against bridge players who are interested in participating in a sport, I have to travel at a minimum about 500 km, as I did last weekend.

We have to welcome less serious players if we want a game at all.

I think we do welcome less serious players, we don't cater for the new players who do want to become tournament players.

[mycroft]

How? (And remember that many tournament players don't want a serious sport either - witness the "if there's no Gold Rush, we're not coming that day" people, never mind the "whaddaya mean we're in A? But we only have 1500 points, it's not like we are experts" people).

But seriously, how does either the OP "when will this odd call that appeals to scientists and foreigners be legal?" or the thread drift "it's hard to understand or find the regulations explaining what can be played and how it should be explained" inhibit "new players" from becoming tournament players (or even "bridge-as-a-sport" players (*))? I am right with you on "M:tG players, who are used to complications far beyond bridge bidding science, and are also used to far stronger penalties for legal mistakes (sometimes even "forgets"), even at "low level" tournaments (treating "Regular" REL games like FNM as "club games" equivalent, and "Competitive" REL as "tournament"), might find the ways we rule and protect "this game" as "not serious", but we had the opportunity to go after those and we didn't/failed at it. The average new bridge player who takes their games "seriously" and gets deep into it? They might just RTFLB, like they did with the Rules of Golf back in the day, or the Laws of Box Lacrosse when the(y|ir kid) got past intro level, and the CCs and Alert Procedures are really no worse than their condo bylaws or employment contracts. The attitude of us longtimers ("we know how bridge is played, don't confuse us with the Laws and Regulations") doesn't help, I will admit.

(*) If you play any sport at more than kick-around level, you'll be expected to have read the actual rules (or have a coach that has and can explan them). You'll get whistled, even when you "didn't mean to" or "didn't know about". You'll take your lumps, or you'll read up and know for next time. Really, bridge is the only thing close to a sport where not knowing the rules you play under, even at the top level, is a badge of honour, never mind *possible*.

[mike777]

 mycroft, on 2025-March-06, 11:59, said:

How? (And remember that many tournament players don't want a serious sport either - witness the "if there's no Gold Rush, we're not coming that day" people, never mind the "whaddaya mean we're in A? But we only have 1500 points, it's not like we are experts" people).

But seriously, how does either the OP "when will this odd call that appeals to scientists and foreigners be legal?" or the thread drift "it's hard to understand or find the regulations explaining what can be played and how it should be explained" inhibit "new players" from becoming tournament players (or even "bridge-as-a-sport" players (*))? I am right with you on "M:tG players, who are used to complications far beyond bridge bidding science, and are also used to far stronger penalties for legal mistakes (sometimes even "forgets"), even at "low level" tournaments (treating "Regular" REL games like FNM as "club games" equivalent, and "Competitive" REL as "tournament"), might find the ways we rule and protect "this game" as "not serious", but we had the opportunity to go after those and we didn't/failed at it. The average new bridge player who takes their games "seriously" and gets deep into it? They might just RTFLB, like they did with the Rules of Golf back in the day, or the Laws of Box Lacrosse when the(y|ir kid) got past intro level, and the CCs and Alert Procedures are really no worse than their condo bylaws or employment contracts. The attitude of us longtimers ("we know how bridge is played, don't confuse us with the Laws and Regulations") doesn't help, I will admit.

(*) If you play any sport at more than kick-around level, you'll be expected to have read the actual rules (or have a coach that has and can explan them). You'll get whistled, even when you "didn't mean to" or "didn't know about". You'll take your lumps, or you'll read up and know for next time. Really, bridge is the only thing close to a sport where not knowing the rules you play under, even at the top level, is a badge of honour, never mind *possible*.

Strongly disagree.
The vast majority of professional sports players don't know many of the league rules. This is for several reasons.
Rules change often and careers are short.
These are adults with many things going on in their lives.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2025-March-06, 11:59, said:

(*) If you play any sport at more than kick-around level, you'll be expected to have read the actual rules (or have a coach that has and can explan them). You'll get whistled, even when you "didn't mean to" or "didn't know about". You'll take your lumps, or you'll read up and know for next time. Really, bridge is the only thing close to a sport where not knowing the rules you play under, even at the top level, is a badge of honour, never mind *possible*.

Exactly.
But how it is that bridge sets the bar so much lower, to the point that players or even Directors who try to follow the rules are often shunned?
I spent decades in other sports, in particular cycling and athletics.
Cycling then had serious issues, but many infractions led more or less directly to a high speed fall with only a strip of lycra between you and the road. For the rest, I learned a lot about sport the one time I told the referee where to go (he had rung the bell for the last round one round too early, a mistake which cost me the race).
Athletics has an excellent culture of respect of the rules, they are few and simple and if you don't know or follow them it is very much your problem.
Bridge? I was appalled, and decided I had no choice but to become a referee myself.

[mike777]

Rules being shunned?
Sports have a long history of disrespect for the rules.


Look at history, the surprise is more that rules are followed

Rereading several books on rules being shunned in bridge, long history.
Cycling Ditto...

Referring is a tough job, in sports or in politics or in life..
No respect

One saying here in America that you hear over and over, fans don't pay to see the ref.

[akwoo]

pescetom, on 2025-March-06, 16:58, said:

But how it is that bridge sets the bar so much lower, to the point that players or even Directors who try to follow the rules are often shunned?

The problem is that bridge rules are completely unworkable for weaker players.

A couple months ago, I called the director on myself because it was possible I had taken advantage of UI from partner's hesitation. (I wasn't sure if my bid had any logical alternatives, so I made it and then called the director after the hand.) I explained what I was doing to my beginner opponents. (Actually - it was more complicated - the director was playing, so I polled him after he played the hand and agreed on a ruling based on that.)

One of my opponents pointed out that she hesitated on every hand, since she rarely had any idea what she was doing. Her beginner partners were also hesitating on every hand, and she had no idea if she was in fact subconsciously taking into account the hesitation in deciding her next action. She doesn't know enough to have a logical thought process and, once out of the rules for opening bids and responses, just bids based on intuition which certainly might be subconsciously influenced. It's even worse during the play.

I told her that she should just try her best to maintain an even tempo and make sure not to consciously take partner's tempo into account. (Forget what the rules say - there is no way she could handle the mental gymnastics of figuring out what was and was not demonstrably suggested and deciding what was and was not a logical alternative.)

However - her point stands - if we go strictly by the rules, the director would be making a ruling on her on every hand, and the result on every hand would be not what happened at the table but rather whatever the director rules. At that point, she isn't playing anymore.

Both weekly games within 130km have majorities of social players who are also beginners. If we tried to play according to the rules, it would basically be the director playing against himself or herself.

[mike777]

Along the same theme, in American football the refs could call a penalty on every play.

In Basketball travelling or palming the basketball almost never called.
Sports are entertainment, refs walk a fine line.


If you did, no sports.

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2025-March-06, 11:59, said:

Really, bridge is the only thing close to a sport where not knowing the rules you play under, even at the top level, is a badge of honour, never mind *possible*.

I can believe this in North America. I would like to know if this is true Globally?

akwoo, on 2025-March-06, 17:52, said:

The problem is that bridge rules are completely unworkable for weaker players.

A couple months ago, I called the director on myself because it was possible I had taken advantage of UI from partner's hesitation. (I wasn't sure if my bid had any logical alternatives, so I made it and then called the director after the hand.) I explained what I was doing to my beginner opponents. (Actually - it was more complicated - the director was playing, so I polled him after he played the hand and agreed on a ruling based on that.)

One of my opponents pointed out that she hesitated on every hand, since she rarely had any idea what she was doing. Her beginner partners were also hesitating on every hand, and she had no idea if she was in fact subconsciously taking into account the hesitation in deciding her next action. She doesn't know enough to have a logical thought process and, once out of the rules for opening bids and responses, just bids based on intuition which certainly might be subconsciously influenced. It's even worse during the play.

I told her that she should just try her best to maintain an even tempo and make sure not to consciously take partner's tempo into account. (Forget what the rules say - there is no way she could handle the mental gymnastics of figuring out what was and was not demonstrably suggested and deciding what was and was not a logical alternative.)

However - her point stands - if we go strictly by the rules, the director would be making a ruling on her on every hand, and the result on every hand would be not what happened at the table but rather whatever the director rules. At that point, she isn't playing anymore.

Both weekly games within 130km have majorities of social players who are also beginners. If we tried to play according to the rules, it would basically be the director playing against himself or herself.

This argument has been used as rationale for not teaching or enforcing the Laws, because by doing so we would scare the newbies away.
Just as often, it has been pointed out the enforcement of the Laws at the 0-50, 50-200, 200-500, 500+ levels can be tailored and tamed appropriately.

Perhaps too, there are players who simply couldn't follow the Laws, even at the basic level and perhaps Sanctioned, Duplicate Bridge isn't the right game for them.
Social Duplicate Bridge is. Unfortunately, the draw of Master Points is so great that the best attendance at the Regionals is for the Gold Rush Pairs.

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2025-March-06, 18:39, said:

Unfortunately, the draw of Master Points is so great that the best attendance at the Regionals is for the Gold Rush Pairs.

I think you should look at this from the other direction. Unfortunately there are so few serious bridge players that there would be no Regionals (they'd be financially unviable) if it weren't for Gold Rush Pairs.

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2025-March-06, 20:02, said:

I think you should look at this from the other direction. Unfortunately there are so few serious bridge players that there would be no Regionals (they'd be financially unviable) if it weren't for Gold Rush Pairs.

Yes, thankfully we still have GR pairs.