[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-December-29, 09:14, said:

That makes sense. Is that a general rule after game tries? I hadn't really thought about it. If opener bids game after responder declines the game try, does that "direct" responder to start cuebidding? Presumably, opener can show slam interest by bidding 4NT or cuebidding herself if responder bids game.

(I guess I hadn't thought of it because it's kind of a fake game try in this situation. It doesn't really describe opener's hand.)

I have come to believe that there are no general rules in this game
For me, it suggests partner reevaluate their hand and asks for a cue. It's not a demand as a 2C opening is, partner can use his judegment.
I could make a second cue after partner rejects a "game try", I could cue myself over a game signoff although this hand perhaps should have opened 2C

[mike777]

Feel a lot better with that responder hand if I start with 3S rather than 3C.
Now I have a Max hand, in context, rather than a dead minimum.


After
1S-3S
Opener might well just give up and bid 4S

[fred]

jdiana, on 2024-December-29, 09:14, said:

That makes sense. Is that a general rule after game tries? I hadn't really thought about it. If opener bids game after responder declines the game try, does that "direct" responder to start cuebidding?

No - that directs responder to Pass without looking at his hand.

If, after responder rejects the game try, opener still has slam interest, he can cuebid himself.

That is a general rule.

[jillybean]

If partner was just shy of accepting the game try, is a cue over game never appropriate?

[fred]

jillybean, on 2024-December-29, 12:46, said:

If partner was just shy of accepting the game try, is a cue over game never appropriate?

NEVER

Here are some reasons:

- You have limited your hand and partner has signed off in game. This is really the only reason that matters.
- Like I said, if partner still has slam interest despite your non-accept he could have given you the opportunity to cuebid at a sane level. He chose not to do so, hence he no longer has slam interest (not that he "promised" slam interest to begin with - see below).
- It is very possible that partner never had slam interest to begin with for various reasons:

1) He may have been trying to keep 3NT in the picture
2) He might be looking to play in a different trump suit if you could raise the "game try" (for example, after 1S-2S you can bid 3H with a game-only hand since we might have a 9-card heart fit and an 8-card spade fit)
3) He may have been trying to dissuade an opening lead in his "game try" suit
4) He may have been trying to attract an opening lead in his "game try" suit


(Granted 3 and 4 might be considered Zia-like maneuvers - not important to add these to your playbook)

Responder doesn't need to think about any of these possibilities - he should just respect the fact that opener is the captain and has placed the contract. 4S is just a natural bid - it doesn't "show" anything (except the desire to try to win 10 tricks with spades as trump).

[jillybean]

NEVER is a very strong directive in this game.

Thanks

[mycroft]

Well, I don't play Bergen with pickups, mostly because they know what 3♣ means, and that's the only possible meaning, and the next pickup will think the opposite. And there's a good chance both of them will explain it as "reverse Bergen".

But "not trusting partner to guess the continuations right if I don't bid 4NT" is another reason.

What do we need for slam? ♣A or ♣KQ (because we're playing the hand; if the A is offside we're doomed), and either the ♥Q or the ♦K to clear those up, and probably something in spades (the Q would be best, but JT is okay). With those cards, we have a club loser and a hope for "one finesse". What is the 3♣ range? 7-9? Well, they'd better be not only on the top, but perfectos, and even then it's not 100%.

Instead you got a minimum with a club card, and while the hearts are nice, you got neither the 2-2 spade break nor the 5-2 or 4-3 heart break. So now you have a club loser, the diamond has to be onside, and even then there's no play.

29-point slams frequently make, but you need to see the tricks. Yeah, I'd make a try, and I might even be basically forced there with a club control and the ♠Q, but really, where are the 9 HCP, and what's our chance of 12 tricks if they have it? And can I find out if they have it, or this hand? I mean, swap the ♥Q with the ♥5 and it at least has play, but it's still at best 50%, and that's a GOOD maximum.

I've been learning SMP with a new partner, and doing a *lot* of "placing partner's HCP" for slam purposes recently. And failing, hard, the same way as here (Simon's "overbid their good hands").

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2024-December-29, 13:44, said:

NEVER is a very strong directive in this game.

Thanks

If there’s one poster, infrequently though he posts, that you should pay attention to it is Fred.