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Better use of GIB in P.A.

#1 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-17, 07:03

Hello everyone. I suggest (BBO programmers) to re-consider the use of BBO in Play Anonymously(PA.) not limited only for (simple) play, I think, by Novice/Beginners in order to become more familiar with some game situation (which in hindsight are many) but this for a more profitable bidding use and also for a greater use at own didactic level by "more experienced" players who could have an increasingly present need both to update and practice for various situations of both definition and search for bidding solutions for the competitive bidding of the pair. I therefore think that the opening of a collateral "bidding box" (=window) can be devised where one can quickly find what is indicated among the various situations already present in the GIB for the P. A. related to the conventions: Lebenshol (possibly all its options), Michaels (weak and strong), Cappelletti,UNT,Truscott2NT, Jacoby2NT, and others always practiced by GIB. Also extend what has been said to the bidding part (for research) of:1NT (for transfers also to encourage the use of 4WT),2 strong for the various situations of negative response (=relay waiting),SolowayJ.S., barrage at the third level , at the fourth level both in minor and major suits, under opening at level two, opening situations doubled by the first opponent, (etc.). I hope I have been detailed enough, but even without a total response to what I have already said, giving a partial follow-up would be very useful and I believe condivisibile . Thanks anyway for your attention.
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#2 User is offline   queueiueue 

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Posted 2023-August-17, 23:18

Lovera, I think you have good ideas but you need to express them more clearly. Start by writing shorter sentences. Use simple English and proper punctuation.
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#3 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-18, 06:35

View Postqueueiueue, on 2023-August-17, 23:18, said:

Lovera, I think you have good ideas but you need to express them more clearly. Start by writing shorter sentences. Use simple English and proper punctuation.


All right I'll try to do my best but when there are different things to say it's difficult to have shorter sentences (after all, as many know here I have had the opportunity to express "ideas" as you say on various topics). I take this opportunity with you who are new to BBO to tell you that you can see everything I've done by entering my nickname (Lovera) in each subforum (i.e. in Interesting Bridge Hands, Suggestion for the Software, etc.) to read my posts/topic in the chosen one.


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#4 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-18, 06:55

What is requested probably has to do with the possibility of using "Redeal". In fact, when you start and want to change hands, you use it to look for a different or more specific one (let's say it is "Redeal random" because you don't know what you will be given). What I say, requesting a specific choice (i.e. Lebenshol) must provide hands on which the chosen convention must act (in this case the "Lebenshol" convention which can also be applied not only to 1NT openings but also to rever hands). Therefore you can decide to proceed or even to declare initially as responderer in another way (also including the possibility of a new Redeal). Obviously, when you are on the opposite side, the convention chosen by GIB proceeds and in that case you only have to verify the correctness of your answers.


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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2023-August-18, 20:15

To produce hands where Lebensohl would apply is difficult.
I suspect there isn't a program that can do this.

Suggestion: use spacing, instead of running all your sentences together.
It makes things easier to read.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#6 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-19, 01:34

View Poststeve2005, on 2023-August-18, 20:15, said:

To produce hands where Lebensohl would apply is difficult.
I suspect there isn't a program that can do this.

Suggestion: use spacing, instead of running all your sentences together.
It makes things easier to read.


No, about Lebenshol: are the same hands by GIB that one is only a selection from its hands to bid.
About spacing:i don't understand it or what's the meaning/how to do.
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#7 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-20, 06:21

Surely it has happened to look for a hand of bridge with certain characteristics sometime and you will have noticed that you will have spent some time to get what you wanted (and think if you have to repeat this other times with obviously relative further "wasting" of time). Well, what I'm asking for would allow for this to be obtained immediately grouped (i.e. in sequence - the hands of the same type but different ones capable of being used for the chosen convention - therefore, from the moment of choice, always one after the other). I won't tell you how many possibilities open up but I'll leave it to you to imagine the various possibilities of use also for carrying out bidding tests of various types. In fact, I am convinced of the usefulness of opening what I think could be the IT solution to find (= pop window to choose from in Redeal).


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#8 User is offline   0 carbon 

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Posted 2023-August-21, 19:01

View PostLovera, on 2023-August-18, 06:55, said:

What is requested probably has to do with the possibility of using "Redeal". In fact, when you start and want to change hands, you use it to look for a different or more specific one (let's say it is "Redeal random" because you don't know what you will be given). What I say, requesting a specific choice (i.e. Lebenshol) must provide hands on which the chosen convention must act (in this case the "Lebenshol" convention which can also be applied not only to 1NT openings but also to rever hands). Therefore you can decide to proceed or even to declare initially as responderer in another way (also including the possibility of a new Redeal). Obviously, when you are on the opposite side, the convention chosen by GIB proceeds and in that case you only have to verify the correctness of your answers.


You can do this already. For example, I have this Dealer input for goulash boards:
twoN = shape(north, any 55xx + any 56xx + any 57xx + any 58xx + any 66xx + any 67xx)
twoS = shape(south, any 55xx + any 56xx + any 57xx + any 58xx + any 66xx + any 67xx)
#
bigN = shape(north, any 6xxx + any 7xxx + any 8xxx + any 9xxx
 + any 00xx + any 01xx + any 11xx + any 02xx + any 12xx + any 03xx )
bigS = shape(south, any 6xxx + any 7xxx + any 8xxx + any 9xxx
 + any 00xx + any 01xx + any 11xx + any 02xx + any 12xx + any 03xx )
bigE = shape(east, any 6xxx + any 7xxx + any 8xxx + any 9xxx
 + any 00xx + any 01xx + any 11xx + any 02xx + any 12xx + any 03xx )
bigW = shape(west, any 6xxx + any 7xxx + any 8xxx + any 9xxx
 + any 00xx + any 01xx + any 11xx + any 02xx + any 12xx + any 03xx )
#
BigE and BigW and ((TwoN and BigS) or (TwoS and BigN))


This can be used in Bidding Practice.
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#9 User is offline   0 carbon 

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Posted 2023-August-21, 19:04

View Postqueueiueue, on 2023-August-17, 23:18, said:

Lovera, I think you have good ideas but you need to express them more clearly. Start by writing shorter sentences. Use simple English and proper punctuation.


The forum software creates these loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong lines.
Better one sentence per line.
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#10 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-22, 15:55

View Post0 carbon, on 2023-August-21, 19:04, said:

The forum software creates these loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong lines.
Better one sentence per line.


Leave these things that you say. My request that I want to bring to attention of programmers is just for a faster lookup on some hand types as I mentioned in #7 without the need to achieve this through repeated use of Redeal (sometimes after a long time then you get what you are looking for).


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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 14:12

I'm pretty sure there are sites that provide bridge teachers with collections of hands that demonstrate different principles. You can upload these hands to your saved deals, and then use them at teaching tables or bidding practice tables.

As others suggested, in many cases it's possible to write Dealer scripts that generate hands that fit the criteria for a convention. Dealer scripts for 1NT openings opposite Jacoby transfer hands should be straightforward, as would hands that will use Jacoby 2NT responses to 1 of a major. Lebensohl may be harder, since it requires specific competition in addition to the partnership hands.

While it's theoretically possible to program GIB to select hands that use a particular convention when it bids, the code is not currently designed in a way that would make this easy to extract. Bids are not always labeled with the name of the convention in the software, and adding all of these would be onerous. Since this kind of teaching material already exists, there's not much priority to automating it.

There's a forum below for discussing Dealer scripts.

#12 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 14:34

View Postbarmar, on 2023-August-23, 14:12, said:

While it's theoretically possible to program GIB to select hands that use a particular convention when it bids, the code is not currently designed in a way that would make this easy to extract. Bids are not always labeled with the name of the convention in the software, and adding all of these would be onerous. Since this kind of teaching material already exists, there's not much priority to automating it.

An interesting concept would be to adapt dealer to be able to reference GIB's book bids; e.g. something along the lines of bid(north,1)==1N && bidlevel(east,1)==2 && bid(south,1)==2N . This would be relatively straightforward to integrate, since you can just look up the bidding sequence after dealer has generated the hands. While GIB of course doesn't get everything right, it would mean not having to reinvent the wheel every time you want a certain bid made.

But agree there are higher priority tasks..
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#13 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-23, 14:38

View Postbarmar, on 2023-August-23, 14:12, said:

I'm pretty sure there are sites that provide bridge teachers with collections of hands that demonstrate different principles. You can upload these hands to your saved deals, and then use them at teaching tables or bidding practice tables.

As others suggested, in many cases it's possible to write Dealer scripts that generate hands that fit the criteria for a convention. Dealer scripts for 1NT openings opposite Jacoby transfer hands should be straightforward, as would hands that will use Jacoby 2NT responses to 1 of a major. Lebensohl may be harder, since it requires specific competition in addition to the partnership hands.

While it's theoretically possible to program GIB to select hands that use a particular convention when it bids, the code is not currently designed in a way that would make this easy to extract. Bids are not always labeled with the name of the convention in the software, and adding all of these would be onerous. Since this kind of teaching material already exists, there's not much priority to automating it.

There's a forum below for discussing Dealer scripts.


You too insist on widening the "field of action". But this fact is precisely not necessary! In fact there is no need for i.e. Bridge Captain, Argine, Double Dummy Solver or other similar sites. In fact, no IT knowledge is required, which you often don't have (without making yourself guilty of it) or because you wouldn't have the necessary time to devote to understanding yourself. And I say this because the hands are already there and they are the ones that GIB submits when playing in Play Anonomously. It is on that "selection/block" temporally made available that one must choose. Instead of having them all present but randomly I ask (as this is possible) that they be selected as for my initial indication as all those that can always bid themselves in a certain way i.e. the hands for the Soloway Jump Shift which are all characterized by their great strength both in distribution and in points. Therefore a selection to be made on hands and conventions already existing among GIB's hands at that time so to avoid to use "Redeal" in a repetely way.
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#14 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 08:31

View Postbarmar, on 2023-August-23, 14:12, said:

I

While it's theoretically possible to program GIB to select hands that use a particular convention when it bids, the code is not currently designed in a way that would make this easy to extract. Bids are not always labeled with the name of the convention in the software, and adding all of these would be onerous. Since this kind of teaching material already exists, there's not much priority to automating it.




What you say here partially confirms what I requested given that something already exists and therefore we could proceed since we rely on GIB's biddings without changing anything. Now when we play with GIB against partner's opening major and we have i.e. 4 support cards with QJxx, high points (14/+ points) and unbalanced hand and we choose the bid of 2NT it is already labeled 2NTJacoby and the convention starts. Identical speech with a very strong hand in scoring (19/+ points) and by making a jump suit bid we will find SolowayJumpShift and again the convention starts and there are already two groups of hands (=the hands among others with the same conditions of points and shape as in SJS) among those not interfered. Among those interfered by the first defender if the opener bids 1NT we find 2NT already indicated as Lebenshol, if the opening bid of a major suit is doubled(=X) we will find 2NT Truscott which, moreover, can also be bidded on various suit overcalls with collateral bids for preventive hands and for strong ones(= via cues). The barrage bids with few points and with a long one-suiter are grouped together as barrage (also foreseen in the answer) and we are already at 4 other groupings. When such a selection was made with the group to choose, there would be an undoubted advantage of research time having already than presented hands one after the other for the same group to bid and thus bidding tests could easily be carried out.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-August-24, 08:52

View Postsmerriman, on 2023-August-23, 14:34, said:

An interesting concept would be to adapt dealer to be able to reference GIB's book bids; e.g. something along the lines of bid(north,1)==1N && bidlevel(east,1)==2 && bid(south,1)==2N . This would be relatively straightforward to integrate, since you can just look up the bidding sequence after dealer has generated the hands. While GIB of course doesn't get everything right, it would mean not having to reinvent the wheel every time you want a certain bid made.

But agree there are higher priority tasks..


Like readapting dealer to calculate tricks (as was promised to "look into" two years ago).
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#16 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-August-27, 03:40

With this choice of the convention (among the various others possible) there would be a selection thus bypassing the opener the initial pass bid or the presentation of "trivial" or with low points hands. In fact, GIB opener will bid starting from 1/1, 1NT, 2 and so on, presenting hands with points on the line N/S such as to be able to bid as previously chosen (i.e. 2NTJacoby with honorable fourth card or even third with more honors in support to the opening and relative pointings, jumping for SJS with long collateral suit and support to the opener and very strong hand) if the opening is not interfered. With overcall instead it could be the turn of 2NTTruscott. With barrage hands with one-suiter and an hand poor in points we will therefore have those bids already in the opening as well as the sub-openings at level 2 (weak) where GIB uses features on partner's 2NT response and so on.
Let you free to post on this topic your opininions that, i think, this mine is already largely condivisibile and much usefull (also for programmers).
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#17 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-September-02, 06:48

The speech is not yet completed. In fact it is a question of going to the opposite side where you will take the place of GIB which was previously in N (in w vs w) where you started the chosen convention while now in S (w vs r) you only bid and it will then be GIB who will start the convention. In this way you can both verify how GIB behaves and what you need to know to give the correct answers and therefore gain IMPs (I can assure you it will be a lovely surprise).


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#18 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2023-September-02, 07:01

But how to rearrange when this Redeal seems denied? I report here what was said in Redeal disabled? in GBD by LWK69 so that you will have this option instead: https://www.bridgeba...ost__p__1057192
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