[phoenixmj]

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The bidding started out with west opening 1D, north passes, east starts a 2/1 with 2c, south passes, west bids 2d, pass, then east bids 3c.

We used to play Q-minorwood but due to not playing bridge for a long time, we have not reviewed this so it is not on our card. I sense a possible slam, so I said 4NT, and partner responded 5C (1 or 4).

Now, I desperately want to bid 6 clubs, but the lead is coming from east and I have a K doubleton of hearts. I am concerned about losing 2 hearts, and I am not sure if partners one card is the king of clubs or the ace of hearts.

We played 5c making 6 - and this is an especially bad score because we could have played no trump if bidding below slam. Is there any way I can find out about the critical card which is the QH? Our cue bids are 1st round control, so it would have take a lot for me to show the KH so partner could make a decision based on his queen.

Very few people in the field made it to slam - but it is not the strongest field. Most people played 3 NT.

Thanks in advance.

[AL78]

What would 2NT and 3NT by opener have shown on the second round?

[eagles123]

Think West has a pretty clear upgrade to 2N with a good five card suit, three aces, and useful spot cards. What east then does depends on methods, if there is a sophisticated way to show that hand then so be it, but I think 2N - 6C is a practical auction absent high level methods.

[phoenixmj]

 AL78, on 2023-March-22, 08:13, said:

What would 2NT and 3NT by opener have shown on the second round?

Hi - since we are inside a 2/1, we treat 2NT as showing stoppers in unbid suits. Says nothing about strength.

We have to discuss what 3NT would mean. I don't think we have ever bid that.

I guess I thought that I needed to show that I had real diamonds - but I like the idea of showing stoppers. That is probably the best avenue since we don't want to wind up in a minor unless we are in slam.

Edited - I just read the Larry Cohen article on jumping to 3N. He basically says that with 18-19 I should still use 2NT, and that he never recommends jumping to 3N. But, if I bid 2N, I am guessing my partner will say 3N - leaving me with the decision to "accept playing 3N' or pursue the possible club slam. I guess I would pass 3N - which would have been a better score.

[phoenixmj]

 eagles123, on 2023-March-22, 09:31, said:

Think West has a pretty clear upgrade to 2N with a good five card suit, three aces, and useful spot cards. What east then does depends on methods, if there is a sophisticated way to show that hand then so be it, but I think 2N - 6C is a practical auction absent high level methods.

Thank you. Curious - what high end methods would work - I can look them up.

[mw64ahw]

I'm bidding 2NT showing balanced 18-19 in a standard better minor approach.
2♦ is an under bid for me.
As East I'm then bidding 4♣ as slam invitational ending in 6♣ on this occasion.

[phoenixmj]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-March-22, 09:39, said:

I'm bidding 2NT showing balanced 18-19 in a standard better minor approach.
2♦ is an under bid for me.
As East I'm then bidding 4♣ as slam invitational ending in 6♣ on this occasion.

Does 2NT show 18-19 points while in a 2/1 auction? What do you bid if you have a balanced hand and 14 points, both unbid suits stopped and no other good rebid? For us, it does not show 18-19 points. It just shows stoppers. We are already in a game force. Also, the 4c invite to slam does not tell me about the Q of hearts - which turned out to be the key card. Else, they can take 2 hearts off the top. We have the same problem with Q-minorwood I think - the 2 potential heart losers somehow I need assurance that hearts are covered.

[LBengtsson]

If you decide not to open 2NT with the West cards, and many would go the route of opening at the one level with 1♦, then rebidding 2♦ is just a poor bid imo - you asked for advice, so I am going to say it as it is.

The reason why I say 2♦ is a poor rebid is:-

1. It is not a 6+ card suit
2. You are indicating (usually) a minimum hand - maybe in your 2/1 methods you want to save space, so you can bid 2♦ here.
3. You are not looking for a major suit fit: if partner had 5M he would have bid it at the one level instead of 2♣ surely?
4. You have no 4M to show, so no 4M/4M fit to find.
5. The hand is balanced, and to protect the ♥Kx you will need to be declarer.

So here you need 2NT to show the shape, but not necessarily the point range here. After this I think it is easy to get to 6NT played from your side, although 6♣ is a better and alternative contract, but you should still get there imo. Partner rebids 3♣ after 2NT to show a 6 card suit, and with 19 HCPs and good controls opposite minimum of 12, I really cannot see how the field played in 3NT.

I admit it is always easier to judge a possible contract seeing the two hands that are bidding, but there is a certain logic having a 2NT rebid as extras or minimum here on this sequence. I also admit am not a 2/1 expert, like Stephen Tu who writes on these forums, but I have seen this 2NT rebid made on both types of hand, 12-14 minimum and 18-19 balanced also.

[phoenixmj]

 LBengtsson, on 2023-March-22, 10:47, said:

If you decide not to open 2NT with the West cards, and many would go the route of opening at the one level with 1♦, then rebidding 2♦ is just a poor bid imo - you asked for advice, so I am going to say it as it is.

The reason why I say 2♦ is a poor rebid is:-

1. It is not a 6+ card suit
2. You are indicating (usually) a minimum hand - maybe in your 2/1 methods you want to save space, so you can bid 2♦ here.
3. You are not looking for a major suit fit: if partner had 5M he would have bid it at the one level instead of 2♣ surely?
4. You have no 4M to show, so no 4M/4M fit to find.
5. The hand is balanced, and to protect the ♥Kx you will need to be declarer.

So here you need 2NT to show the shape, but not necessarily the point range here. After this I think it is easy to get to 6NT played from your side, although 6♣ is a better and alternative contract, but you should still get there imo. Partner rebids 3♣ after 2NT to show a 6 card suit, and with 19 HCPs and good controls opposite minimum of 12, I really cannot see how the field played in 3NT.

I admit it is always easier to judge a possible contract seeing the two hands that are bidding, but there is a certain logic having a 2NT rebid as extras or minimum here on this sequence. I also admit am not a 2/1 expert, like Stephen Tu who writes on these forums, but I have seen this 2NT rebid made on both types of hand, 12-14 minimum and 18-19 balanced also.

I do agree that 2N would have been a better bid. After reading the Larry Cohen article on this issue, he says that 2N could either be a minimum hand or an 18-19 point hand, so it really does not give much info to partner on strength. Neither did my bid. I agree that it is better if I am the declarer because of the K doubleton of hearts. As it turned out, according to double dummy - 6NT does not make. So, we either have to play 3N or play 6clubs. And if we are in clubs, partner is always the declarer leaving me with the heart lead issue.

I rebid the diamonds to see if partner might have clubs and diamonds, and I am not worried about a pass since we are in a forcing auction.

If I were bidding it today, I would have bid 2N - then depending on what partner did - we might wind up at 3N or possibly 4N. Still having a problem getting to 6C.

I appreciate the analysis. I looked at the hand again this morning to see if I could determine from the bidding that partner had the Q of hearts based on points, and I still cannot get there. Any help is appreciated.

[jdiana]

We play that opener's 2NT rebid shows either 12-14 or 18-19 HCP. (Responder assumes it's 12-14.) If responder then bids 3NT, opener will raise to 4NT to show 18-19 HCP. Opener's jump rebid of 3NT shows 15-17 HCP and a hand that didn't bid 1NT for some reason (probably 5-4-2-2). We also play that notrump rebids promise stoppers in the unbid suits but not everyone plays that way.

We play the same way after 1M-2m, so this keeps things internally consistent and easy to remember.

[mw64ahw]

 phoenixmj, on 2023-March-22, 10:25, said:

Does 2NT show 18-19 points while in a 2/1 auction? What do you bid if you have a balanced hand and 14 points, both unbid suits stopped and no other good rebid? For us, it does not show 18-19 points. It just shows stoppers. We are already in a game force. Also, the 4c invite to slam does not tell me about the Q of hearts - which turned out to be the key card. Else, they can take 2 hearts off the top. We have the same problem with Q-minorwood I think - the 2 potential heart losers somehow I need assurance that hearts are covered.

If 2♣ is GF and denies a Major I'll bid 3NT with stoppers and 12-14.
Over 4♣ my approach is to show keycards so 4♦ would be even and anything else odd with a control; in this case 4♥. East with a key card and Q♣ bids 4NT to show the ♦ control denying a ♠ control and continued slam interest. West converts to 6♣ with the ♠ controls

[LBengtsson]

 phoenixmj, on 2023-March-22, 11:37, said:

I do agree that 2N would have been a better bid. After reading the Larry Cohen article on this issue, he says that 2N could either be a minimum hand or an 18-19 point hand, so it really does not give much info to partner on strength. Neither did my bid. I agree that it is better if I am the declarer because of the K doubleton of hearts. As it turned out, according to double dummy - 6NT does not make. So, we either have to play 3N or play 6clubs. And if we are in clubs, partner is always the declarer leaving me with the heart lead issue.

I rebid the diamonds to see if partner might have clubs and diamonds, and I am not worried about a pass since we are in a forcing auction.

If I were bidding it today, I would have bid 2N - then depending on what partner did - we might wind up at 3N or possibly 4N. Still having a problem getting to 6C.

I appreciate the analysis. I looked at the hand again this morning to see if I could determine from the bidding that partner had the Q of hearts based on points, and I still cannot get there. Any help is appreciated.

Easier seeing both hands obviously, but a possible sequence that may lead to 6♣ could go 1♦ - 2♣ - 2NT - 3♣ - 3♠ - 4♦ - 4♥ - 4NT - 5♦ - 6♣. However, a big however...is that partnerships may not cue bid this way, preferring to show first round controls throughout. Additionally after 3♣ - I think you should show that you have a good six bagger as opposed to raising 2NT to 3NT - does 3♠ agree ♣ as trump and show the 18-19 balanced, or does it show a possible area of weakness in the ♥ suit looking for 3NT with the 12-14 minimum?

I personally think that 3♠ should set ♣ as trumps and shows the bigger hand imo. However, I agree it is a very difficult hand to end up in 6♣ now having had a look at it a second time. No wonder many did not get pass 3NT. Thank you for posting.

[mw64ahw]

 LBengtsson, on 2023-March-22, 15:36, said:

No wonder many did not get pass 3NT.

On another day 3NT may be the better contract. I occasionally lose out when the field is in 3NT going plus and I play in 5m, but often find the minor suit slam when others have signed off. For me East's hand above is on the cusp of the SI

[the hog]

Open 2NT. Having not done so, bid 2NT over 2C.

"We have to discuss what 3NT would mean. I don't think we have ever bid that." For me 3NT shows a solid 6/7 card suit.

[mw64ahw]

 the hog, on 2023-March-23, 00:52, said:

Open 2NT. Having not done so, bid 2NT over 2C.

"We have to discuss what 3NT would mean. I don't think we have ever bid that." For me 3NT shows a solid 6/7 card suit.

I would agree although playing standard with a pick-up partner I doubt they would twig.

[jdiana]

"For me 3NT shows a solid 6/7 card suit." For us, a jump rebid of the major shows that type of hand. I think that's fairly standard, at least in American 2/1 systems.

I agree, though, that 2NT would have been a better opening bid. After that, it depends on agreements. I've been considering adopting the simpler of the two approaches described here - https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/225 - but haven't done so yet. With our current agreements, I think we would just bid 2NT - 4♣ -(Gerber) - 4NT (3 aces) - 6♣. (I'd be concerned about transportation for a 6NT bid.)

[Cyberyeti]

I have a nasty suspicion we'd start with 2N and finish in an unmakeable 6N.

Swap the ♦J and Q and you can make it but no logical reason why you should.

[nullve]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-March-23, 07:08, said:

Swap the ♦J and Q and you can make it but no logical reason why you should.

Failure to lead diamonds / restricted choice?

[Cyberyeti]

 nullve, on 2023-March-23, 08:46, said:

Failure to lead diamonds / restricted choice?

Well he needs to have the ♥A as well.

[phoenixmj]

Curious - what do you think of this logic? I am past 3N, and now I am committed to clubs. It is pretty clear that 3N will make more than 3, and 5C will make with the question being will 6 make. Should I say - 5c is likely a loser whether I make it or not. I am past 3N. I should just go to 6c with a 50/50 chance that the ace of hearts is onside? Else I am likely getting a very bad score anyway.

Thanks in advance.