[DavidKok]

I think there is a significant difference between a weak two in diamonds and a 2♣ weak two in diamonds (that may also have some strong hands on occasion). The former exerts much more pressure. The latter frees up a bid for a multi, but it achieves different goals. At some point I was a big enthusiast of cramming more and more hand types into weak/strong bids, but at the table they just didn't seem to win as much. I'm now a big fan of weak bids where responder may frequently pass. The easiest way to do this is by including the suit bid into the description of the bid (although even a 4-card suit might be enough, on occasion) and I believe the weak-only multi players are trying to recover the same threat through different means.
Multi is a fun convention and certainly has multiple upsides, but it also comes with noticeable cost.

If you want to open more often, or preempt more often, I think multi is not at all a great way to do it. There are lots of interesting and aggressive preemptive schemes with higher frequency and, in my opinion, lower cost than multi + some weak uses for 2M.

[jillybean]

I'm thinking aloud here, one of the benefits I like of our disciplined (1&2 seat) weak 2's & feature ask is the ability for partner to bid 3nt with some certainty. I am obviously giving that up. I want to ask partner if 2♥ 2♠ is forcing, other than that I think Helene's advice about the 100 page system booklet is very pertinent and I'll just have fun trying it.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-January-19, 05:04, said:

I think there is a significant difference between a weak two in diamonds and a 2♣ weak two in diamonds (that may also have some strong hands on occasion). The former exerts much more pressure.

I'm also a bit perplexed about 2♣ strong or weak diamonds: when and how does responder break the marionette?

DavidKok, on 2023-January-19, 05:04, said:

At some point I was a big enthusiast of cramming more and more hand types into weak/strong bids, but at the table they just didn't seem to win as much. I'm now a big fan of weak bids where responder may frequently pass. The easiest way to do this is by including the suit bid into the description of the bid (although even a 4-card suit might be enough, on occasion) and I believe the weak-only multi players are trying to recover the same threat through different means.

I do concede Multi is effective in bunny bashing (even when the bunnies are used to opponents opening Multi, they still fail to defend well).
But I've also had some decent mileage out of an honour strong 2♦ too.
If I were to play Multi, a least NV I would be tempted to play 2M as 4M+5m (like the X of MultiLandy) rather than 5M+4m: has anyone tried or thought about that?

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2023-January-19, 16:29, said:

I'm also a bit perplexed about 2♣ strong or weak diamonds: when and how does responder break the marionette?

Everybody, partner included, assumes the weak type until proven otherwise. You break the marionette whenever you feel you want to play something other than 2♦ opposite a weak hand with diamonds. If you yourself are weak with long diamonds (including, say, 10 points, balanced and a 3- or 4-card diamond suit) and partner has the strong variant you will preempt your own auction, tough luck. Some people instead give up on barrage raises of the weak version and only break the marionette when strong enough that game is likely opposite the weak version.

pescetom, on 2023-January-19, 16:29, said:

I do concede Multi is effective in bunny bashing (even when the bunnies are used to opponents opening Multi, they still fail to defend well).
But I've also had some decent mileage out of an honour strong 2♦ too.
If I were to play Multi, a least NV I would be tempted to play 2M as 4M+5m (like the X of MultiLandy) rather than 5M+4m: has anyone tried or thought about that?

Yes, I think these are part of Frelling two openings (and Chris Ryall's website also calls them 'Velociraptor' - after the Raptor 1NT overcall). One of the downsides is that 4M5m has far less law protection than 5M4m, since you will belong in the minor far more often (and that's a level higher). You also reduce the frequency with which partner can safely pass.

[nullve]

pescetom, on 2023-January-19, 16:29, said:

If I were to play Multi, a least NV I would be tempted to play 2M as 4M+5m (like the X of MultiLandy) rather than 5M+4m: has anyone tried or thought about that?

Yes, it's called 'Velociraptor'.

In one partnership I played

2♣ = Multi 2♦-like (with 6M3-OM or 5M4+m3-OM) or GF with primary hearts
2♦ = Ekren (with 4+S4+H) or GF with primary spades
2M = Velociraptor (with 4M5+m3-OM)

.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2023-January-19, 16:53, said:

Yes, it's called 'Velociraptor'.

In one partnership I played

2♣ = Multi 2♦-like (with 6M3-OM or 5M4+m3-OM) or GF with primary hearts
2♦ = Ekren (with 4+S4+H) or GF with primary spades
2M = Velociraptor (with 4M5+m3-OM)

.

Illegal now in EBUland

[jillybean]

2 multi hands from yesterday's game.

---

Dealer East
P (P) 2♦ (3♦)
X (P) 3♥

X undiscussed

3♥-1 for 17 of the 24 MP, we would be in the same spot if playing weak 2H.
I would have opened the south hand

3C regular stayman. 2nt=20-22

---

[pescetom]

The first one, NS should be bidding from the start.
The second one looks like another "no difference" too. You don't say what 2NT is, but I see no reason to bid to slam in any case (nobody promised E that diamonds would behave).

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-January-17, 14:52, said:

I do play multi, and have for many years (although until recently only in team trials or international events since it wasn’t allowed in most ACBL events)

I’ve played 2M as weak 2 values, with 5M and 5(sometimes 4 esp nv) another suit.

If 5S then the other suit is a minor

If 5H, may have spades

Also played where 2M is always 5M, 4+ minor

A third approach I’ve played is 2D is a weak weak 2Mand 2M is 8-10/11. I really don’t like that except at favourable in first and second seat

Currently I play a fourth style, on which the jury is out until we get more samples. 2D is a weak 2M, 5-10 and 2M is 6M 10-13 (the overlap is to allow judgement)

"If 5H, may have spades"

If 2♥ may have 4 spades, and assuming 2nt is a positive response, how does partner ask for the minor? 3♣ pass or correct?

[DavidKok]

I completely misread what mikeh wrote, I'm sorry if anybody caught the previous version of this post.

You would presumably not use 2NT to ask for a minor over 2♥ as a runout, but incorporate 2♠ 'pass or correct'. You can safely ask with strong hands though.

[jillybean]

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