[jillybean]

MP's.
This is not exactly how my auction would have started as I would start with 2C GF or balanced,
2D should be 5 but here we are.

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[LBengtsson]

I would start with 2♣ as responder, if a partner has 4♦ then good chance he will show it second round. when partner bids 2♥ however I now bid 2Nt to keep bidding open and show my balanced shape but not point count. bidding 2♦ then 3♣ to me show definite 5♦ and 4♣: if west now bid ♦s as preference he will probably see any ♥ bid by you as stiff/void not support. best contact maybe no trumps with ♠K protected.

[mw64ahw]

East's hand opposite a minimum assuming the 3♥ rebid above shows 6+♥

1♥-2♣
2♦ (Min) -2♥ (asks for shape)
2NT 6♥ unbalanced/3♦ (semi)balanced/3♥ 7+♥ - 4NT (Kickbo 3/5 keycards controls in all suits)
with the unbalanced response, 3♣ asks for the shortage/4 card minor if that step is needed. (i.e. short ♠ would be good)

Very similar opposite a non-min West, but without the intermediate stage

1♥-2♣
2NT 6♥ unbalanced/3♦ (semi)balanced/3♥ 7+♥ - 4NT (Kickbo 3/5 keycards controls in all suits)
with the unbalanced response, 3♣ asks for the shortage/4 card minor if that step is needed. (i.e. short ♠ would be good)
e.g.
3♣ shortage/4 card minor
----3♦ 4 card minor
--------3♥ which?
------------3♠ 4+♣
------------3NT 4+♦
----3♥ short ♣ 3631
----3♠ short ♦ 3613
----3NT short ♠ 1633

[Douglas43]

Take it 1♥ - 3NT= 16-18 balanced was not available?

[nige1]

Jillybean 'MP's. This is not exactly how my auction would have started as I would start with 2C GF or balanced, 2D should be 5 but here we are..'
++++++++++++++++++++
Agree with JillyBean that a 2♣ reply might have been better. After replying 2♦, a 2N rebid seems more descriptive.
You've shown sturdier minor-suits than you actually hold but partner seems reluctant to admit to a ♠ stop. Hence I rank...
1. 4N = RKC.
2. 6N = "Landy" slam try.
3. 3N = NAT underbid.

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[DavidKok]

If I bid a suit thrice, it's trump.
So I like 3♠ showing a control and forward-going. 4NT would be quantitative for me (supersedes the rule on thrice bid suits, since I had cheaper bids available to investigate slam in hearts).

[Winstonm]

Assuming we should be in slam, and that is far from a given, it should be played from the strong hand side.

But I don’t know why that hand didn’t bid 2n over 2h.

As it is now I have to guess slam or not so I guess not and bid 4H

[mycroft]

Partner has ♥AQTxxxx and a card, minimum (probably 2 cards); if worse, not ♠Ax(+). Even with three cards and ♥Axxxxxx, or the right 3 cards and ♥QJxxxxx, we should have a play for 6. If I can trust partner to read 4♣, or 3♠ then 4♣, as cues for hearts and not trying desperately to get away from hearts, I'll do that. Otherwise, it doesn't look awful to keycard and find out about ♠A, ♥AQ and just hope one of the minor kings shows up (or both jacks and we have a one-in-two finesses).

I want to know why this hand didn't bid 3♥ over 2♥. If this is a world where 2♥ could be 5-and-a-minimum, and other bids show extras, I can see 3♣/2NT. In the "shape rules" world I usually live in, Kx is more than adequate support for a rebid suit. This way I don't have to invent a bid over 3♥ that "shows extras and agrees hearts and..."

[mikeh]

3C was weird beyond belief.

Playing 2/1 this was an easy 2N. Then, were opener to bid 3H, we could cuebid to show slam interest: whether that be 3S or 4C depends on style but for me it would be 3S.

3S is more effective than 4C because we’d like to see opener cuebid a minor suit king if she has one.

So far partner could have anything from Axx AQxxxx xx xx, where slam is pretty bad, to Ax AQxxxxx xx Kx where grand is excellent.

With a hand such as the latter, I cue 4D over 4C and partner can drive to slam…I will have made two cuebids so I have at least ‘real’ slam interest.

With the former, she bids 4H over 3S and I’m done.


Having predictably endplayed myself in the auction, I’m reduced to making a unilateral decision. One has to ask why I didn’t make a plan earlier in the auction.

4H now could be xxx x AQxxx AQJx so partner almost surely shouldn’t be bidding over that. Btw, that’s more or less the hand type we show when we bid 2D then 3C. With Kxx x AQxxx AQJx we don’t bid 3C. We bid 2N. We’re not missing clubs when we bid 2N….partner has an easy 3C call with appropriate shape.

We can create a force via 3S. However, 3S is simply a noise. It tends to deny a stopper….since we’d bid 3N with most hands with a stopper and, of course, we should have bid 2N earlier so maybe now we have Kxx void AQxxx AQxxx, the sort of hand on which 3C makes sense.

We’d like to bid 4N as a natural slam try, but we’d need to be allowed to announce ‘natural’ when doing so, otherwise partner will think it’s keycard.

Keycard is possible and I expect anyone bad enough to have bid 3C would be bad enough to use it as a slam try.

But what if partner shows 1 keycard?

We’re going to be guessing.

I think, if forced to take over from a responder who was overcome by nausea induced by his bidding to date, I’ll try 3S and hope to hear 3N over which I will bid 4H, showing a hand too good to have raised to 4H earlier. It’s not good…I have a minor suit Queen too much…or maybe one too many Aces…but this is a salvage mission now that I’ve botched the auction so needlessly.

Side-note: there is a reason why good players are, at least in NA, starting to require 5+ diamonds for the 2D response. Had responder been of that school, he’d have been driven into bidding 2N after 1H 2C 2H….that’s not ‘the reason’ but it is a beneficial side effect

[DavidKok]

mikeh, on 2021-July-13, 10:52, said:

So far partner could have anything from Axx AQxxxx xx xx, where slam is pretty bad

I agree with everything else but would have bid 3♠ over 3♣ with this hand, asking partner to bid 3NT with Qx or better.

[jillybean]

West would cue 4♣ after David's forward going 3♠

Opposite MikeH it would have proceeded;
1♥:2♣
2♥:2N
3♥:3♠
4♣:4♦
4♠:5♥ (kickback / 2 wo Q)
7♥. (I know we have all keycards and East has made a spade cue, or perhaps I'm influenced by knowing the hand)


This was our auction. Noone found the grand, one pair bid 6NT, all others were in 6♥

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[Winstonm]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-13, 11:29, said:

I agree with everything else but would have bid 3♠ over 3♣ with this hand, asking partner to bid 3NT with Qx or better.

Depends on whether or not you’ve shown 6 hearts doesn’t it?

[DavidKok]

Winstonm, on 2021-July-13, 12:23, said:

Depends on whether or not you’ve shown 6 hearts doesn’t it?

No, even if only having shown 5 this suit is not good enough to bid again. Also if partner has diamonds and clubs and something in spades the chance that hearts is the best contract, even if we have a 6-2 fit, is very slim. I'll occasionally end up in 3NT with a 6-2 fit but only with all suits stopped so it need not be a disaster.

jillybean, on 2021-July-13, 12:22, said:

West would cue 4♣ after David's forward going 3♠

I think that is the right bid on that West hand, but there's also a case for bidding 4♦ to get that king in. Responder promised 5(+) diamonds and that may well be a critical source of tricks for slam.

[jillybean]

Douglas43, on 2021-July-13, 07:57, said:

Take it 1♥ - 3NT= 16-18 balanced was not available?

No, it's not available. I can't ever remember using that sequence and there is no need when playing 2/1, although someone probably has a good use for it.

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2021-July-13, 12:29, said:

No, it's not available. I can't ever remember using that sequence and there is no need when playing 2/1, although someone probably has a good use for it.

It's an empty bid in my system at the moment, once f2f play resumes I'll introduce mikeh's "5(+)-card raise with too much values for 4M" to my partner and see if we can play that. Quite a few partnerships use it to distinguish between a singleton and void splinter (something like 1♥-3♠ = any singleton splinter, 1♥-3NT = void splinter in spades, 1♥-4m = void splinter in the bid suit). The advantage is that after 1♥-3♠ opener can just sign off in 4♥ instead of asking for the singleton, and there are even some asking schemes that conceal the shortness ("opener bids the lowest suit in which they would accept a slam try opposite a singleton").

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 as was already said, 2C instead of 2D
#2 now it is either 3S (4th suit, ... but it may get murky after that) or 5H
I would go with 5H.
You may miss slam, if partner has Qx in spades, but that is life, but even than it may not be cold,
depending on the garbage you may thinks is an opening bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Seeing both hands, what was wrong with 3H instead of 2H? The 7th heart with AQJ should be enough
to set the suit, and Kx in diamonds, is no reason to downgrade the hand.
Not finding the grand after both played hide and seek is no surprise, be grateful you landed on your feet.

[Winstonm]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-13, 12:28, said:

No, even if only having shown 5 this suit is not good enough to bid again. Also if partner has diamonds and clubs and something in spades the chance that hearts is the best contract, even if we have a 6-2 fit, is very slim. I'll occasionally end up in 3NT with a 6-2 fit but only with all suits stopped so it need not be a disaster.

So what is your partner to bid with xxx,Axxxxx, KJ, Kx ? Or is he/she forbiden to hold that hand 😏

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2021-July-13, 10:52, said:

Side-note: there is a reason why good players are, at least in NA, starting to require 5+ diamonds for the 2D response. Had responder been of that school, he’d have been driven into bidding 2N after 1H 2C 2H….that’s not ‘the reason’ but it is a beneficial side effect

Way back when, since adopting 2♣/1M game force, clubs or balanced (could be as short as 2) I have played 2♦/1M as 5. Other than it seems logical if we have an artificial 2♣ available, it does give partner a very clear picture of your hand.
I remember players rolling their eyes and shaking their heads when I announced 2♣/1M could be short, but back then I was regularly getting 40% games. It's nice to be in ground breaking territory, thanks to the contributors here.

[DavidKok]

Winstonm, on 2021-July-13, 12:46, said:

So what is your partner to bid with xxx,Axxxxx, KJ, Kx ? Or is he/she forbiden to hold that hand ��

3♦. Parter can bid 3NT with good spades, 3♥ with a doubleton or 3♠ with desire to play 3NT instead of 4♥ even opposite a hand that cannot bid 3♠ (and we can accept if the ♠xxx are actually ♠Jxx). If disaster strikes and partner has, say, 3=1=5=4 opposite this 3=6=2=2 then I don't even know what I'd like to play seeing both hands, never mind seeing only 13 cards.

Personally I consider that one of the weaknesses of 2/1. Sometimes an opening (especially mine) opposite an opening simply doesn't make game. But you'll still be in it. Usually it's some misfit 4M after neither partner had the guts to bid 3NT, and you go down in spectacular fashion.

[jillybean]

jillybean said:

West would cue 4C over David's 3S

DavidKok, on 2021-July-13, 12:28, said:

I think that is the right bid on that West hand, but there's also a case for bidding 4♦ to get that king in. Responder promised 5(+) diamonds and that may well be a critical source of tricks for slam.

This is an interesting point. If East did have a 2♦/1♥ bid my ♦K could be a very important card but by cueing ♦, I deny the ♣ control. When is it appropriate to conceal a control from partner?