[jillybean]

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Teams 1nt forcing

Do I have to bid this like a weak club hand?

[smerriman]

I would bid 3♣, natural + invitational. If you don't have that available, then there's not much else you can do.

[mw64ahw]

smerriman, on 2021-June-09, 15:42, said:

I would bid 3♣, natural + invitational. If you don't have that available, then there's not much else you can do.

I'll raise you to 4♣

[johnu]

mw64ahw, on 2021-June-09, 16:16, said:

I'll raise you to 4♣

Only if you announce natural + invitational. If you don't announce it as showing clubs, some people might think you have spades and shortness in clubs because I don't know anybody who uses 4♣ as natural.

[Stephen Tu]

With an 8 bagger and holding AKJ, I think it's two playing tricks too strong for an inv 3c and will miss game too often. I would just bid 2c then 5c. May well not make, but ought to show approximately this IMO, and avoids bidding accidents.

[mw64ahw]

johnu, on 2021-June-09, 18:01, said:

Only if you announce natural + invitational. If you don't announce it as showing clubs, some people might think you have spades and shortness in clubs because I don't know anybody who uses 4♣ as natural.

Of course-I think Stephen has the right idea although I'd take a slower route to tease out potential slam opportunities.

[Winstonm]

I think the best way to bid this is: 2C, 3C, 4C, 5C This hand is never the dummy in a suit contract

[LBengtsson]

Stephen Tu, on 2021-June-09, 19:01, said:

With an 8 bagger and holding AKJ, I think it's two playing tricks too strong for an inv 3c and will miss game too often. I would just bid 2c then 5c. May well not make, but ought to show approximately this IMO, and avoids bidding accidents.

that is interesting way of bidding however if opener has big hand opposite a 2♣gf could there be a bidding accident also? whats the difference between 1♠ - 2♣ - (opener rebid) - 5♣ and 1♠ - 1NT (force) - (opener rebid) - 5♣? and what if opponents intervene over 1♠ - 2♣ and bid up to 4/5 level themselves in ♥/♦. does it not make it difficult for partner to know what hand you have? I know you are 2/1 expert, Stephen, but I go with 1NT forcing route because less chance partner will misinterpret 5♣ after, especially if opps bid 4♥.

[Stephen Tu]

LBengtsson, on 2021-June-09, 21:59, said:

that is interesting way of bidding however if opener has big hand opposite a 2♣gf could there be a bidding accident also? whats the difference between 1♠ - 2♣ - (opener rebid) - 5♣ and 1♠ - 1NT (force) - (opener rebid) - 5♣? and what if opponents intervene over 1♠ - 2♣ and bid up to 4/5 level themselves in ♥/♦. does it not make it difficult for partner to know what hand you have? I know you are 2/1 expert, Stephen, but I go with 1NT forcing route because less chance partner will misinterpret 5♣ after, especially if opps bid 4♥.

So there are several possible reasons I favor 2c over 1nt:
- OK the orig poster specified forcing 1nt but semi-f 1nt is getting pretty popular these days so may not be option for some
- 2/1 actually tend to discourage opener from jumping around with good hand so I will get to complete my description
- I have had considerable problem previously on auction 1S-1nt-3h-? getting to clubs, there is not 100% clearcut std what 4c/5c mean on that auction, it is rare and often undiscussed. Even if you have solid understanding with your partnership on these auctions perhaps 2c follow by 5c should be better suit than 1nt follow by insisting on clubs at high level. You might insist on club with more broken 8 or 7 only rather than something like this.

If the opps bid a lot, hopefully when I bid 5c partner will figure out I did this just holding a lot of clubs. If the opps are already at the 5 level when it gets back to me then there may be problems. But usually 2/1 discourage opps from bidding because they can get in lot of trouble when they don't find good fit and we usu are bidding on more HCP.

[LBengtsson]

Stephen Tu, on 2021-June-10, 00:15, said:

So there are several possible reasons I favor 2c over 1nt:
- OK the orig poster specified forcing 1nt but semi-f 1nt is getting pretty popular these days so may not be option for some
- 2/1 actually tend to discourage opener from jumping around with good hand so I will get to complete my description
- I have had considerable problem previously on auction 1S-1nt-3h-? getting to clubs, there is not 100% clearcut std what 4c/5c mean on that auction, it is rare and often undiscussed. Even if you have solid understanding with your partnership on these auctions perhaps 2c follow by 5c should be better suit than 1nt follow by insisting on clubs at high level. You might insist on club with more broken 8 or 7 only rather than something like this.

If the opps bid a lot, hopefully when I bid 5c partner will figure out I did this just holding a lot of clubs. If the opps are already at the 5 level when it gets back to me then there may be problems. But usually 2/1 discourage opps from bidding because they can get in lot of trouble when they don't find good fit and we usu are bidding on more HCP.

thanks for your reply, Stephen. that covers all bases imo. yes, there is a big difference having ♣ suit AKJxxxxx and Qxxxxxxx or similar. I didnt think along these lines so a 2♣ response is clearly right here. suit quality and length making adjustment for lack of usual 12+ high card points gf response.

[jillybean]

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It appears that I started off on the right path but failed to follow through.

Can anyone stop in 4♣ here after 1S 2C gf.

[mycroft]

No, but I can stop in 3♣ playing "2/1 GF except suit rebid". This is almost textbook for that agreement. Of course, when West has the same hand with an outside ace and a king, this agreement is extraordinarily awful. Swings and roundabouts.

There are those who can stop in 4m, but only when "we've tried for 3NT and failed". Here, not only did we not "try and fail", we actually bid it. 4♣ now means "3NT is so likely not enough, partner, that I'm willing to play 5♣ and lose to all the 3NT players if it turns out I'm wrong".

But this is why I don't bid 2♣ GF (if it's 100% F3NT) with this hand. It's got lots of *strength*, but if the clubs don't run, it's a zero-count in the likeliest contract - and still requires enough stopper in opener's hand that we can afford a "first-round safety finesse" with xx. 1NT forcing for me, and put off my problem for next round (because 3♣ could be much weaker after 2red). Not sure whether I'd do it if the round suits were swapped, but it's much more palatable, because I can pull 3NT to (only) 4♥.

Expecting to stop on a dime in 4m is resulting of the highest order - when opener has one club, the chance of making 5♣ is >50%; even here, it's still 31%. But, of course, that relies on partner having aces for their stoppers and not KQJxx QJxx.

[nullve]

smerriman, on 2021-June-09, 15:42, said:

I would bid 3♣, natural + invitational. If you don't have that available, then there's not much else you can do.

You're forgetting that some play "2/1 GF except when suit rebid". (Which is the default 2/1 style in Norway, btw.)

[HardVector]

Fyi, this is one of my pet peeves. This hand is not "weak". The word weak is very overused and has different meanings in different bidding situations. After your partner has opened, generally "weak" is now 0-5. If the opposition has opened, or if you are opening the bidding, then "weak" is now around 6-9.

Even using either criteria, having 8 clubs to the AKJ, there is now way you should be calling this weak. There is more to a hand than looking at the honors, counting 4+3+1 and thinking that the hand is worthy of being valued at 8 pts.

[TylerE]

The 3N rebid on 5=3=5=0 is gross when 3d is available.

[jillybean]

Stephen Tu, on 2021-June-09, 19:01, said:

With an 8 bagger and holding AKJ, I think it's two playing tricks too strong for an inv 3c and will miss game too often. I would just bid 2c then 5c. May well not make, but ought to show approximately this IMO, and avoids bidding accidents.

I like this.

HardVector, on 2021-June-10, 12:32, said:

Fyi, this is one of my pet peeves. This hand is not "weak". The word weak is very overused and has different meanings in different bidding situations. After your partner has opened, generally "weak" is now 0-5. If the opposition has opened, or if you are opening the bidding, then "weak" is now around 6-9.

Even using either criteria, having 8 clubs to the AKJ, there is now way you should be calling this weak. There is more to a hand than looking at the honors, counting 4+3+1 and thinking that the hand is worthy of being valued at 8 pts.

Welcome to forums I didn't include it in this post but I'm playing 2/1. My reference to "weak" is in a 2/1 context not as a measure of this hand's pure high card points.