[mink]

Directors in tourneys often learn about people who do not alert, do not explain their bids, talk during bidding, maybe even in a language other than English, play slow, let the clock run out, reject obvious claims when there is not enough time to finish by playing, call director without cause, leave on purpose during the tourney, or misbehave in other ways. There are currently so many tourney hosts and direcotors that such people get away simply because nobody recognizes their repeated violations of the rules.

I therefore suggest to implement a database where each director can input such cases. As an interface, a webpage would be sufficient. Only one or two of the yellows should be able to read the database and take appropriate action.

Information stored in that database could be

director, date, tourney, board #, offender, his partner,
kind of Problem (to be selected from a list), Remarks

Karl

[luis]

I wouldn't refer to the participants as "offenders" or to the facts as offenses or rule violations, simply call it a database of facts that can be useful for tournament directors.
I'll add to your list recording psyches, if a player fields a psyche and that pair has some recorded previous psyches a director can conclude that the psyche was fielded ilegally -red-.

But besides all this the best best tool would be a database where all the hands played in BBO are kept and can be "tagged" or categorized so a TD or player can later find boards played by some player, or boards belonging to a specific category or cross matches..... This would be a great tool to research, to learn and to TDs. Maybe...

[hrothgar]

I am not a lawyer (I don't even play one on TV)

However, I'd like to point out an important issue.
The United States is a litigious society.
We have lots of lawyers.
Lawsuits may have replaced baseball as the National pass-time.

Entering names of perceived "troublemakers" into a database is asking for trouble.
Simply developing a database designed for this purpose could leave you exposed.

[keylime]

The director's main purpose is to monitor and make certain that there is not misbehavior or a breach of the Laws. Allowing the players to request members to be placed on report is opening the door to things that I don't want to entertain at all. Here in the ACBL there's a recorder form that's used but even that process is flawed at times. I don't think it's in the best interest to give open license to the masses to report issues --- it can easily be used to get a player someone doesn't like out of our community strictly due to a personality clash.

The system that is in place has worked for me in my many tourneys. The admins are aggressive, but fair, in making certain that problematic members are monitors and if necessary removed. I am thankful to them -- they have helped get three members to either stop their behavior or having them removed.

[mink]

I like to emphasize that my intention was that only directors are allowed to send entries to the database and that only one or two individuals should be able to read all that. I would think that in this way everything is as descreet as possible. The database is only a tool, nothing prevents us from sending an email to "abuse@bbo" after each tourney, but this would be much more work for those in charge.

E.g. talking in a language other the English I would not consider worth while reporting to abuse as it could have happened unintentionally - the player was talking to a kibitz for example and failed to click on the name first. And the director learns about that only by the call of an opp and seldom experiences that live. But if the database revealed he is talking in every tourney this should be a reason to have a word with him about that.

And keep in mind that only nicknames are recorded that cannot be linked to a real individual.

Karl

[McBruce]

Is any of this any good when a determined abuser can simply log in to BBO under a new nickname?

--McBruce

[fred]

Quote

Is any of this any good when a determined abuser can simply log in to BBO under a new nickname?

--McBruce

We know when a user has logged in using a
new nickname and we are able to restrict a
given user to a single nickname if want.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Gweny]

I think point Mink is making is for people who do chronic misbehavior. In Total Points club we see maybe 4-5000 players per month and after close to 9 months of tournaments we notice certain people prone to rude behavior, and leaving tournaments, etc. Much of rude behavior go once we decide to announce "Zero Tolerance" for rude behavior. tee hee now only time people is prone to rudeness is full moon nights. :-

I think Mink idea is good IF and ONLY if bbo staff is sole people to see this. Much time little/short quiet talk with offending person correct problems.

I do confess I make note of reports of rudeness, slow play/intentional slow play, and intentional disconnection for future reference. Of this 3 type problems last 2 is troubling for variety of reasons.

Slow play/intentional slow play in clocked event is disgusting form of cheating and require director to make adjustments. This is very annoying form of cheating.

Intentional disconnection is extremely rude to all in tournament and in particular to poor people in same table. Doing replacements is little bit time consuming with certain names and 2 players in one table - sigh...

This is where Minks idea maybe help us all.

Using abuse@bbo do not sound like good idea for this type complaint.

[Resaz0]

I have started only a few tournments so far and I have found myself a couple of times in embarassing situations. I had more than once the impression of misbehaviour but I could never be 100% sure of it ... so I am very careful ....

Basically I can see that actions that can be taken by a director are repolacement of a player during the tournement or blacklisting so that he/she cannot join future tournements: but when shall i do it?
So far I have never replaced anybody, and I think this is very prolematic (the pard for sure would not accept it). I have on my enemies list only a couple of very slow players and I feel a little guilty for this, because most probably they only have connection problems.

Is there a standard ruling or can I have a guidline for this issue by more experienced directors?
Once we have a general approach to the problem, I think that it is better if each director takes his own decisions (and responsabilities) toward players in tournment. I will try to be fair but for sure i will also make errors.

[bglover]

I just had a fellow outright tank a hand when i wouldn't give him an adjustment... even though i clearly announced that there would be NO adjustments made (it was a speed event). Since he didn't like the rules he purposely fouled a board.. ruining the round.

I expelled him from the game and then averaged out the 2 boards he ruined for the table. This brought a 15 minute howl from the other pair telling me how unfair it was they didn't get avg plus since the other side fouled the boards.

I ended up blacklisting (but not removing) the other guy from the other pair as well.. I was going to give both sides Av- but called to more important duities. Never got around to it so the averages stood.

Blacklisting someone is about the most I can currently do to anyone... but I had fairly convincing evidence one pair cheated on a board. then they complained when there was a time issue against them and had to take the avg minus... When I asked him about the board he purposely turned down a claim on after time ran out (i looked at the movie... the hand was essentially over and I believe the guy did claim), he denied it ever happened... blacklisted that pair also.

The only reason i am going into this is that tonite, although atypical because it was speed pairs which adds layers of stress, was just one more in an ongoing stream of games I have directed where there has been abundant misbehavior. If there was a way to put all these people into a "pot" and keep them out of tourneys all our lives would be less stressful in the future. If BBO instituted a ZERO TOLERANCE IN TOURNEY policy that allowed directors to ban EGREGIOUSLY bad people from ALL tourneys it would give us some leverage in preventing this in the future.

Obviously, the behavior would have to go beyond mere complaining about a ruling or whatver.... The guy who purposely fouled the round, tho, as an example, would be easy to verify... Such a rule would certainly stop the very worst offenders and would have the effect of creating more harmonious tourneys down the road.

[uday]

You can bar anyone you like from your tourneys, no reasons needed.
I freely mark people as enemies if they are annoying in a tourney.

If a player causes you problems to the point that you are wasting a lot of time on him, best to issue one warning then kick the player (via a substitute). If partner complains too loudly, I would kick the partner as well, and flag them both as enemies.

If a player is disruptive, though, also ok to let me know - at abuse@bridgebase.com - i am fast to issue short suspensions to let people know we're serious.


Maybe we should allow a ZT invocation by each TD. Or at least, by each experienced TD. FG is here, so i will discuss w/him

[inquiry]

running a speed ball tournement where you give no adjustments and unfinished boards is automatic average minus is going to generate hard feeling from those who don't understand going in. As you know, Steve, i choose not to play in these events from the time I played in the very first one and complained it wasn't enough time to play bridge ( i believe 5 min per board).

Having said that, ban all the problem makers you want. But, to establish a zero tolerance that would ban someone from all tournments decided by one director is a wacky idea. Maybe if two or three tourment directors on different days over a short period of time, ban the same player... maybe then. But spirits run high in tournment games. There was a fair number of people who might need a few day suspension from the abalucy tournment i directed thursday night as tempers flaired, etc etc.... but all the people basically nice (on other days)...

Ben

[bglover]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my proposal..

What I mean is we have a policy where if after a director tells BBO about particularly egregious behavior by someone.. THEN BBO could ban them from future tourneys.

It is having the power to use that as a potential weapon that will help keep people in line.

Clearly, there needs to be verification that the behavior actually occurred etc. I understand that fully. But having that "threat" (I am reporting you for egregious behavior and will have you barreed from ALL future BBO tourneys, not just my own) will give all directors some measure of control we currently do not have and truly need

Addtionally, actually weeding out people who have shown a pattern of abuse would benefit the entire tourney- playing community. Everyone knows that since the Tourney software has been released tourneys make up a significant percentage of the tables playing. Weeding out bad apples is an honorable goal.

Unfortunately, for reasons open to speculation, the incidents of bad behavior (even if not technically bannable offenses under BBO rules) has increased. Ask anyone who has directed here... you will get tons of horror stories I promise. The mere addition of "winning the tourney" adds a level of competition/ stress to some people that cause them to become unruly. (I have posted here before about the perceived increase in cheating once tourneys started as one example of this).

My guess is (and my own personal directing experience is consistent with this thought) that there are a FEW people who consistently cause problems whnever they enter a tourney. I can ban the troublemakers from my tourneys... but then they just go on to the next one and cause trouble there... and so on.

BUT if their tourney behavior was so egregious that it goes beyond the norm... wouldn't it benefit everyone (not just directors but participants) to simply keep them out of ALL TOURNEYS? I think so.

Again, I repeat, it would require verification, I assume they would automatically go on BBO's watch list, etc. But, having this sword over their heads would undoubtedly have some positive effect (keeping them from entering in the 1st place or eliminating them for good if they can't control themselves).

[Gweny]

Quote

You can bar anyone you like from your tourneys, no reasons needed.
I freely mark people as enemies if they are annoying in a tourney.

If a player causes you problems to the point that you are wasting a lot of time on him, best to issue one warning then kick the player (via a substitute). If partner complains too loudly, I would kick the partner as well, and flag them both as enemies.

If a player is disruptive, though, also ok to let me know - at abuse@bridgebase.com - i am fast to issue short suspensions to let people know we're serious.


Maybe we should allow a ZT invocation by each TD. Or at least, by each experienced TD. FG is here, so i will discuss w/him

Ok Tonight certain player make me very mad. This is third time this player disconnect self from tournament and partner do same. This is very rude. They warn opps they do this but to replace people is time consuming task and ruin tournament for others.

I do send report this time and while marking this people enemy do prevent me and people in tours i host from rude person what of other unsuspecting hosts/tds?

Do rude people deserve 3 trys at other TDs in addition to 3 times he do this to people in my tournaments?

hmmm....
Maybe no?

Gweny

[uday]

I'm experimenting with a fast-ban fast-restore policy for abusive players. So far, it has actually been fast-ban (single incident of extreme rudeness) and slowish restore (about 4-7 days before i get around to restoring access).

We'll see how this works.

FG and I dislike tourney-jumping and tourney-rudeness, particularly to TDs. I am happy to suspend someone who cannot learn that tourney-jumping is not a good thing. I feel the same way about rudeness in tourneys. I agree that tourneys make people behave a little worse than they would otherwise. Not sure why.

But try it. If someone violates common decency, and you wouldnt want them in your club, let me know and I can help. No need to create a master ban-list, i think - we dont have enough controls on who becomes a TD - basically, you ask, and we say "sure". But, a complaint from a seasoned TD certainly carries a lot of weight with me.

[Gweny]

Quote

I'm experimenting with a fast-ban fast-restore policy for abusive players. So far, it has actually been fast-ban (single incident of extreme rudeness) and slowish restore (about 4-7 days before i get around to restoring access).

We'll see how this works.

FG and I dislike tourney-jumping and tourney-rudeness, particularly to TDs. I am happy to suspend someone who cannot learn that tourney-jumping is not a good thing. I feel the same way about rudeness in tourneys. I agree that tourneys make people behave a little worse than they would otherwise. Not sure why.

But try it. If someone violates common decency, and you wouldnt want them in your club, let me know and I can help. No need to create a master ban-list, i think - we dont have enough controls on who becomes a TD - basically, you ask, and we say "sure". But, a complaint from a seasoned TD certainly carries a lot of weight with me.

You Rock!

1 question - Is people who is ban aware WHY they ban? (else maybe little bit hard to correct inproper behavior)

[bglover]

An idea occurs to me regarding this and I thought it might be worthwhile to toss it out there for comment:

Many years ago, a neighborhood newspaper here in Chicago began to prominently post and report all residents who were caught with prostitutes. The effect of this was that the neighborhood went from being one of the worst to one of the best in a matter of 2 years, and prostitution was virtually eliminated. Noone wanted to make that paper list.

If we were to start a public list here of bad actors it might have some positive effect. People who exhibit particularly bad behavior within clearly defined categories (Perhaps: Rude to partner; Rude to Tourney Dirctor; Rude to Opponents and Consistently Runs out of Time could be starter categories for example) could be posted here. This would not be accusatory in nature... rather a simple listing by category.

Once someone has hit the list x # of times then appropriate actions would be taken. My guess is that making this list public and warning people that they will go on it may be enough to rein in some of the more outlandish behavior.

Oh... a side note: Last Saturday nite I had NO major incidents at my tourney. On the tourney card I wrote "Zero Tolerance for rude or unethical behavior. Anyone who argues a ruling with the Director shall have their scores reduced to average minus or Zero at the director's discretion." Not one ruling complaint!

[inquiry]

I am totally against the public humiliation or punishment of players in the BBO. IF someone needs to be banned or suspended, fine. Barred from tourney's ok. But public disclosure and punishment, I am against.

Ben

[uday]

I'm with Ben

As far as knowing why you are banned; currently the ban process does not support that. Typically, a player is banned, sees a msg "Login refused, pls contact abuse@bridgebase.com" and I take it from there.

[ack_hh]

Quote

Many years ago, a neighborhood newspaper here in Chicago began to prominently post and report all residents who were caught with prostitutes.

Still laughing tears ...

SCNR