[jillybean]

1♥ (4♠)

X penalty
4nt is pick a minor ostensibly to play or could be a forward going cue in hearts (slammish)
5♣ ♦ ♥ to play

What agreements do you have?

[Cyberyeti]

We play a takeout double here, obviously it gets passed on balanced ish hands.

[mikeh]

It’s very common nowadays to play double as transferable values. Enough values that one expects to go plus on defence if opener has some balanced hand, but also enough that opener should have a play for 11 tricks if he has a distributional hand. In other words, values that should provide some fillers for partner’s hand.

The pure penalty double is a rare occurrence. If you are dealt, say, KQ109 x xxxx xxxx, pass in tempo and hope partner can reopen.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-June-04, 05:18, said:

It’s very common nowadays to play double as transferable values. Enough values that one expects to go plus on defence if opener has some balanced hand, but also enough that opener should have a play for 11 tricks if he has a distributional hand. In other words, values that should provide some fillers for partner’s hand.

The pure penalty double is a rare occurrence. If you are dealt, say, KQ109 x xxxx xxxx, pass in tempo and hope partner can reopen.

Agree with this, and it makes a slight difference if you play weak or strong NT and if you open 1N whith all 5332s in range, if you play weak NT and include the 5332s particularly if as we do there are no 4441s you open 1♥, you know partner has at least 15 if balanced so can make this sort of double with a bit more confidence of not going for 5/790.

[Winstonm]

The issue is: do you really need a takeout double to hunt for a hoped for 4-4 fit at the 5-level? That hand needs so much compensating strength it may as well be called card-showing rather than takeout. If card-showing it doesn’t need perfect takeout shape, though it may be that.

IMO, the hand that may wish to compete over a 4-spade pre-empt would be a 2-suiter or 1-suiter. My thinking is that 4n should be the 1-suited minor and direct suit bids the 2-suiters, 5c clubs and a higher and 5d diamonds/hearts.

Your mileage may vary.

[jillybean]

I assume your 2 suited bid is to play in either suit, how would you show a 2 suited hand with slam potential?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-June-04, 12:07, said:

I assume your 2 suited bid is to play in either suit, how would you show a 2 suited hand with slam potential?

You don’t

Preempts work by removing bidding space

You have to decide slam force or game force.

Opener has rights but I’ve never actually seen opener jump to slam after say 1H (4S) 4N

The problem is that the 4N bidder isn’t promising that game will make. He’s merely saying that he’d rather try for a game (assuming he’s not trying for slam via 4N then 5H) than defend 4S. So opener needs a very good hand, with a fit, to drive to slam

In a similar vein, responder has to hold back a little after forcing partner to choose a minor at the 5-level. Opener might be 2533 or 3532/23, with a minimum and maybe even spade wastage.

When they deprive you of bidding space, and your choice is an aggressive move to slam or a down the middle or even somewhat conservative pass in game, pass in game.

Take the plus score. So you miss an occasional slam. Stuff happens and trying for the maximum in jammed auctions is a good way to lose long team matches.

[jillybean]

---

This was MP

If partner passes or doubles 5♠ , what do you do?
X - you have to pass?
Pass..6C?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-June-04, 12:36, said:

---

This was MP

If partner passes or doubles 5♠ , what do you do?
X - you have to pass?
Pass..6C?

If partner passes 5S, you have (imo) an easy 5N. Trying for grand is too much.

If he doubles, you have a more difficult decision, but I think that 5N is still the right action.however, at this vulnerability, pass has its attractions.

On the actual hand, 6C was a big bid by partner. I’m not at all sure I’d make that call. Cant responder have something like x Jx AKQxx Qxxxx?

But, as responder, I’m not passing 6C. Give him x Kxxxx xx AKxxx, and surely that’s as weak as he could ever be, and grand is virtually cold. Give him x KQJxx xx AJxxx, which is slightly better, as hands go, but worse for grand, grand still looks decent

I said, in an earlier thread, that when faced with a guess about bidding grand, if you are fairly sure that it’s either cold or on a finesse, bid it. Here, most hands on which he’d bid 6C, missing the heart Ace and your AK of diamonds and spade void, grand almost has to have play.

If he has A KQJxx xx KJxxx, too bad, but the odds must be that the opps hold the spade Ace, not the club Ace. This is all the more so given the vulnerability.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2021-June-04, 13:04, said:

If partner passes 5S, you have (imo) an easy 5N. Trying for grand is too much.

5N is pick a slam, which I should have used. I bid 6C with the same intention. (edited, nonsense)

mikeh, on 2021-June-04, 13:04, said:

If he doubles, you have a more difficult decision, but I think that 5N is still the right action.however, at this vulnerability, pass has its attractions.

On the actual hand, 6C was a big bid by partner. I’m not at all sure I’d make that call. Cant responder have something like x Jx AKQxx Qxxxx?

But, as responder, I’m not passing 6C. Give him x Kxxxx xx AKxxx, and surely that’s as weak as he could ever be, and grand is virtually cold. Give him x KQJxx xx AJxxx, which is slightly better, as hands go, but worse for grand, grand still looks decent

I said, in an earlier thread, that when faced with a guess about bidding grand, if you are fairly sure that it’s either cold or on a finesse, bid it. Here, most hands on which he’d bid 6C, missing the heart Ace and your AK of diamonds and spade void, grand almost has to have play.

If he has A KQJxx xx KJxxx, too bad, but the odds must be that the opps hold the spade Ace, not the club Ace. This is all the more so given the vulnerability.

7♣, you would, not surprisingly, have been the only pair there. 3/19 pairs found 6♣
I have to spend more time constructing partners hand.

[Winstonm]

jillybean, on 2021-June-04, 12:07, said:

I assume your 2 suited bid is to play in either suit, how would you show a 2 suited hand with slam potential?

If you are competing at the 5-level without any input from partner, you aren't bidding on nothing - and you're not "guessing" with a weaker hand that it is right to sacrifice. Pass is still a valuable bid at times in this game. Bidding here is not the same hand as a NV Michael's over 1D.

PS: My comments on this thread apply to a 4S opening by opponent or a 1S-P-4S auction - in both partner either has passed or has yet to act. For some reason I didn't remember the 1H opening from your partner in the OP.

[jillybean]

Winstonm, on 2021-June-04, 07:57, said:

The issue is: do you really need a takeout double to hunt for a hoped for 4-4 fit at the 5-level? That hand needs so much compensating strength it may as well be called card-showing rather than takeout. If card-showing it doesn’t need perfect takeout shape, though it may be that.

What do you mean by 'that hand needs so much compensating strength'?

"do you really need a takeout double to hunt for a hoped for 4-4 fit at the 5-level?" This needs more discussion, I know "takeout" doubles are being played at higher and higher levels than when I was taught but at the 4 level I don't see why it shouldn't be suggesting penalty.

Perhaps its all in the name

mikeh, on 2021-June-04, 05:18, said:

It’s very common nowadays to play double as transferable values. Enough values that one expects to go plus on defence if opener has some balanced hand, but also enough that opener should have a play for 11 tricks if he has a distributional hand. In other words, values that should provide some fillers for partner’s hand.

The pure penalty double is a rare occurrence. If you are dealt, say, KQ109 x xxxx xxxx, pass in tempo and hope partner can reopen.

[Cyberyeti]

Winstonm, on 2021-June-04, 07:57, said:

The issue is: do you really need a takeout double to hunt for a hoped for 4-4 fit at the 5-level? That hand needs so much compensating strength it may as well be called card-showing rather than takeout. If card-showing it doesn’t need perfect takeout shape, though it may be that.

IMO, the hand that may wish to compete over a 4-spade pre-empt would be a 2-suiter or 1-suiter. My thinking is that 4n should be the 1-suited minor and direct suit bids the 2-suiters, 5c clubs and a higher and 5d diamonds/hearts.

Your mileage may vary.

You miss the point slightly, if double is "takeout" 4N shows a really serious hand so you're not guessing as much, partner has an easy 6♣ bid instead of one that Mike said he might not make.

[Winstonm]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-June-04, 15:56, said:

You miss the point slightly, if double is "takeout" 4N shows a really serious hand so you're not guessing as much, partner has an easy 6♣ bid instead of one that Mike said he might not make.

Problem is I was responding about the wrong auction 😒

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-June-04, 06:10, said:

Agree with this, and it makes a slight difference if you play weak or strong NT and if you open 1N whith all 5332s in range, if you play weak NT and include the 5332s particularly if as we do there are no 4441s you open 1♥, you know partner has at least 15 if balanced so can make this sort of double with a bit more confidence of not going for 5/790.

You and I appear to be on slightly different wavelengths

My double of 4S is not takeout. I’d venture that it’s left in more often than it’s taken out. Opener is not expected to pull with say 2533 shape. He probably isn’t pulling it with most 1543/1534 hands either, as he definitely should were the double ‘takeout’.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-June-04, 19:10, said:

You and I appear to be on slightly different wavelengths

My double of 4S is not takeout. I’d venture that it’s left in more often than it’s taken out. Opener is not expected to pull with say 2533 shape. He probably isn’t pulling it with most 1543/1534 hands either, as he definitely should were the double ‘takeout’.

Well my point was that partner can't have 2533 shape unless he has significant extra values playing what we play, 25(24) is the only shape that can be minimum and pass. We only differ really around what you do on 15(34)s. I think judging whether to bid 4N is much more difficult if X is your style, I also feel that you have to be VERY careful with your tempo on the double if you play it your style. We have similar problems if it's passed back to opener as to whether they reopen.

[nullve]

Again there seems to be confusion because of the word 'takeout'.

In Norway we use the word 'opplysende' (Eng. 'enlightening') instead and everyone understands that an opplysende dobling (enlightening double) will get passed more often the higher the level at which it is made.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2021-June-05, 03:18, said:

Again there seems to be confusion because of the word 'takeout'.

In Norway we use the word 'opplysende' (Eng. 'enlightening') instead and everyone understands that an opplysende dobling (enlightening double) will get passed more often the higher the level at which it is made.

I think that's the same here, but some people pass them more/less often

[Winstonm]

Now that I see the auction correctly, double here for me is card-showing, meaning too much to pass. 4n should be at least 6-5 minors. The more interesting question is: what should 5C/5D mean?

To answer that IMO requires another question: what have I lost due to the interference? I have not lost the chance to bid game in clubs or diamonds. I have lost the chance to show heart support. So, which is more important?

Given that double should be card-showing - too much to pass - and without a great deal of thought - it might be more useful to use 5C/5D as heart slam tries. I can imagine them as first round control of the suit bid and second round control of spades, kind of like an un-splinter bid.

Regardless, whatever you chose you have to give up something else - and when that comes back to bite you in the butt - and if you play long enough it will eventually - you have to OK with it. Stuff happens.