[robiche]

We play 2/1 GF
I open 1H and NO interference…..
My partner has 4-Spades and Opening points
My Director says that my partner MUST BID 1-Spade and cannot bid a 2/1 repŝonse....

True of False


thanks all

[helene_t]

Hi Robiche, welcome to the forum!

First of all, I don't see how his authority as a director is relevant. Obviously it is legal to have the agreement not to respond 1♠. Maybe certain responses should be alerted in your local jurisdiction?

If the question is not about legal matters but about what is the most common, or most standard, approach, I would say:
- With a 4333 shape, everyone would respond 1♠.
- With 4234, standard is probably to respond 1♠, but some experts respond 2♣. Bidding 2♦ on a 4-card suit is not such a great idea but you will probably find support for that style also.
- With four spades and a 5-card minor, standard is to bid the minor first. You will find a few experts who prefer to bid spades, though.

Some experts let it depend on suit quality.

I hope this helps.

[FelicityR]

If your director can show you a 2/1 book/professional article or a ACBL/CBF directive or pamphlet where the word MUST has been used, then at least there is evidence that such 'guidance' exists.

Otherwise, helene_t's comment is right. Supressing a good five card ♣/♦ at the two level for a poor four card ♠ suit at the one level is anti-bridge and also raises the issues of whether canape (short suits before long suits) are allowed too.

And, I'm assuming here, probably under ABCL/CBF rules canape bids would not be allowed either.

[pescetom]

It also is linked to other choices of your system: does 1H opener's rebid of 2S after a 2/1 show extras, do you play a convention after 1X 1Y 1N, and so on.
If you aren't in a hurry to tinker with important mechanisms then just follow the book and check with TD what needs to be alerted in your system.

[wank]

short answer: the director is wrong

[robiche]

 helene_t, on 2019-October-16, 22:20, said:

Hi Robiche, welcome to the forum!

First of all, I don't see how his authority as a director is relevant. Obviously it is legal to have the agreement not to respond 1♠. Maybe certain responses should be alerted in your local jurisdiction?

If the question is not about legal matters but about what is the most common, or most standard, approach, I would say:
- With a 4333 shape, everyone would respond 1♠.
- With 4234, standard is probably to respond 1♠, but some experts respond 2♣. Bidding 2♦ on a 4-card suit is not such a great idea but you will probably find support for that style also.
- With four spades and a 5-card minor, standard is to bid the minor first. You will find a few experts who prefer to bid spades, though.

Some experts let it depend on suit quality.

I hope this helps.

Hi,

Many thanks for your quick reply. I always thought that 2/1 was a quick method to show your strength….

I open 1H.....partner I have 5H and opening points
Partner bids 2C or 2D, promises opening values
Lets find a FIT.....

[pescetom]

 robiche, on 2019-October-17, 05:13, said:

I always thought that 2/1 was a quick method to show your strength….

I open 1H.....partner I have 5H and opening points
Partner bids 2C or 2D, promises opening values
Lets find a FIT.....

More or less true, but that doesn't exclude responding 1S when it is natural to do so - remember that a 1 over 1 bid is unlimited in strength. And then the devil is in the detail - what do 2C and 2D promise, does 2S after that just promise spades or something extra? What do partner's bids mean if you raise his major at 3 level? And so on.
These are not choices you should improvise. The best thing is to find a good description of a system commonly played in your area and follow that to the letter.

[robiche]

 pescetom, on 2019-October-17, 06:32, said:

More or less true, but that doesn't exclude responding 1S when it is natural to do so - remember that a 1 over 1 bid is unlimited in strength. And then the devil is in the detail - what do 2C and 2D promise, does 2S after that just promise spades or something extra? What do partner's bids mean if you raise his major at 3 level? And so on.
These are not choices you should improvise. The best thing is to find a good description of a system commonly played in your area and follow that to the letter.

Thank you for your excellent reply to my question….. I agree 100% with your suggestion.....

[nvhsmom]

My partner and I play that if I agree with the opening heart bid and I have game points I can bypass a 4 card spade suit and bid a minor if I have slam interest (15 or more points). Otherwise I can't bypass a 4 card spade suit unless I have 5 of a minor. If I don't agree with the opening heart bid I can only bypass bidding a 4 card spade suit if I have 5 of a minor and game points. We also play that going slow shows 15 or more points. So if the bidding goes 1H-2C-2NT-3H I have 15 or more points.

[dsLawsd]

Why was the Director at the table? At any rate MUST does not exist in our vocabulary! Even if an issue arose due to a break in tempo it never changes the fact that players are expected to use judgment. Now if there was a failure to Alert something during the auction it is always possible on facts to have some sort of adjusted score that would affect one or both pairs

(Certified ACBL Club Director)
Thanks kindly for the issue.

[PhilG007]

 robiche, on 2019-October-16, 21:41, said:

We play 2/1 GF
I open 1H and NO interference…..
My partner has 4-Spades and Opening points
My Director says that my partner MUST BID 1-Spade and cannot bid a 2/1 repŝonse....

True of False


thanks all

False Its not in a TD's remit to tell a player what to bid unless there has been an infringement of some kind..
I am a former real life TD. End of story. Whoever this person was,he/she needs to brush up their knowledge
of the Laws.

[aawk]

A director has nothing to do the way you want to bid.

Holding for a example a 4126 pattern and GF you start with 2♣ and later introduce your 4 card ♠ if needed.

[ehhh]

There are teaching guidelines and there are directing guidelines.
There are good reasons for NOT bypassing a 4 card major.
Nothing says you can't!
You can't legislate against bad bridge!

[KingCovert]

You definitely are not required to bid 1♠. Furthermore, while some might disagree, most experts would say that it is correct to bid a 5 card minor with game forcing values over the 4 card spade suit.
I take it that one of your opponents did something like make a really stupid 3♠ bid with a 5-card spade suit and went down a ton? I can already imagine the explanation to the director about how they "only did it because I thought that responder denied spades on the auction"...

[msjennifer]

Sir,I fail to understand why the director was called by your opponents.If there is no infringement the director just asks you to continue the bidding and play.He can not ask you to make a bid which he thinks is correct.If you have alerted the 2/1 response then there is no infringement at all.One can have a system bid alerted. There is nothing in the rules that makes it compulsory to bid as required by the system unless one has the intention of trying to cheat the other three players,(psychic bids excluded.)

[pescetom]

 msjennifer, on 2019-October-17, 14:02, said:

There is nothing in the rules that makes it compulsory to bid as required by the system unless one has the intention of trying to cheat the other three players,(psychic bids excluded.)

Not exactly. You may occasionally deviate from your system, but if you have done it often enough that your partner is aware that you might do so again then it is now an agreement and you must disclose this to your opponents, otherwise it is a serious offence.

[blackshoe]

 robiche, on 2019-October-16, 21:41, said:

We play 2/1 GF
I open 1H and NO interference…..
My partner has 4-Spades and Opening points
My Director says that my partner MUST BID 1-Spade and cannot bid a 2/1 repŝonse....

True of False

If your director is speaking from the viewpoint of the rules of the game, he's completely wrong. If he's speaking from the viewpoint of bidding theory, then the first question you've left unanswered is "what is your partner's shape?" If he has a five card or longer minor, he should bid it in preference to 1!S. If he is balanced with exactly 2 hearts then 1!S is the right bid. If he has four hearts he should raise hearts. If he has exactly 4=3=3=3 distribution, some would bid 3NT, but that's a special partnership understanding (it's part of Bergen Raises, for example).

If my answers are limited to true or false, then I'd have to answer "false".

[Zelandakh]

While the comments above are 100% correct that the TD is wrong if that is really what (s)he said, there are some things you need to know. It sounds from your comments in the thread that you are sometimes using a 2/1 response purely to show strength with little consideration to shape at all. If you do this then it is necessary to alert the 2/1 response in most, if not all, jurisdictions as the response becomes in effect an artificial convention. More importantly it is generally poor bidding unless you have a system specifically designed around this concept. To cope with a hand having 5 card support for partner and game forcing values, my suggestion would be to look up a convention called Jacoby 2NT. This will allow you to show a fit and a game force at the same time in a single call and it means that a sequence where you first respond in a suit and later support partner's major will have a strong connotation of the side suit being good, which makes slam bidding much easier.

If you enter the specific hand that prompted the TD's comment we can perhaps provide additional feedback. My thought is that you perhaps had something like a 4=5=2=2 shape and the opponents felt aggrieved after a non-alerted 2♣ response with the TD trying to tell you that you cannot have an agreement to respond with a natural 2♣. It would be legal to respond with an artificial (alerted) 2♣ or to make a psychic natural 2♣ call, providing that was a one-off and not something partner could ever predict. Normally though one would either respond 1♠ or with a conventional call showing a strong raise. It is not part of standard 2/1 to respond with 2 of a minor on that sort of hand, which I assume was the TD's intent in her/his commentary rather than trying to teach you about a point of Law.

[Edge_]

Context is everything, although sadly you have not given enough context here for a definitive yes or no answer, however....!

The only MUST in a director's instructions is for showing good manners!

But I'm speculating you say 'My Director' as a euphemism for 'Good player' rather than 'Referee'. In which case they're probably right (since directors usually are!). Although I'd suggest they are simply expressing 'with that particular hand in that context, the best bid was 1S'

You should read Larry Cohen's excellent 12-part article about 2/1 https://www.larryco....nter/detail/435 -where the first 5 parts actually say when not to bid 2/1! This will give you a full understanding of 2/1 and WHY you should have bid 1S for that situation.

[PrecisionL]

 FelicityR, on 2019-October-17, 02:39, said:

Otherwise, helene_t's comment is right. Suppressing a good five card ♣/♦ at the two level for a poor four card ♠ suit at the one level is anti-bridge and also raises the issues of whether canape (short suits before long suits) are allowed too.

And, I'm assuming here, probably under ABCL/CBF rules canape bids would not be allowed either.

Canape is allowed except in Basic or Basic+ Chart Club/Events. It is a pre-alert before the auction and an alert during the auction when the second, longer suit is bid.