[Lovera]

The step following the first answer, as everyone knows, asks if you have the Queen (with a corresponding answer). What I'm interested in knowing is whether, from some system, the possibility was raised, in this convention, of the interrogation in that suit with other meaning than the usual one (as some players sometimes asked why they wanted to know about the presence in that suit of the King or Queen) and without, however, having a series of artificial answers.

[Stephen Tu]

The normal/simple way, not using a lot of artificiality:

• first step that is not signoff in trump suit is a Q ask. In practice responder with Q also shows side K if has one. Some but not all play that if it goes something like 4nt-5d-5h and hearts is trumps, that it is signoff opposite the lower number of keycards but Q ask opposite the higher.
• 5nt (or better by agreement, 5 trump suit + 1 step, if not the Q ask) asks for specific kings, bid suit you have K of. 5nt if available can be used to show K of the suit that is above trump suit to avoid going beyond 6 of trumps
• directly bidding 6 of non-trump suit (or 5nt for the trump suit+1 if 5nt isn't the king ask in this sequence) is third round control ask, for Q or doubleton. This can be answered either by some step scheme or something like signoff = no 3rd round control, cue = Q, 7 trump = doubleton.

If looking for more artificiality/complexity but perhaps more efficient transfer of info, search for "spiral scan".

[rmnka447]

As Stephen Tu says, first step asks for the Queen.

Then what he alluded to, spiral scans, can be used to elicit other information. What the hierarchy of the information requested is subject to partnership agreement.

For example, let's assume that ♠ has been agreed upon, and the RKCB auction goes -- 4 NT - 5 ♣. 5 ♦ would be the queen ask. But 5 ♥ is also available below the 5 ♠ signoff as a potential asking bid about something else. Perhaps by agreement, it would be asking for specific kings. If so, it would deny interest in the trump Queen, Having no Ks, responder still can sign off in 5 ♠. Otherwise, by agreement, responder bids something other then 5 ♠ to show a king, maybe by steps. Then over 5 ♥, 5NT would show ♣ K, 6 ♣ shows ♦ K, etc.

This kind of agreement is pretty advanced and isn't something that should be entered into casually.

[Lovera]

What I ask is that, in the request only for the suits of 5 ♦ and 5 ♥, the answer given contains information that does not concern the presence or absence of the Queen of the agreed suit as trump but also the simultaneous information about the King or the Queen in that one (thus replacing an initially ambiguous response). In this way the sequence 4NT-5 ♣, 5 ♦ (=?) - 5 ♥ (= Trump agree, negative) means that there is no Queen of trump but there is also no King or the Queen in the diamond suit. The ambiguity would be apparent if i.e. the interrogator has the Queen of trump.

[Stephen Tu]

That's not realistic because the person being asked can't know which card the asker is missing and is most important. Bypassing your trump suit to show say a diamond card is no good if missing the Q of trumps causes you to go down in slam.
The asker, if holding the Q of trumps, *skips asking for it*. If he has trump Q and wants to know about diamond king, then bid 5nt (or maybe 5s if hearts are trumps), and responder to RKC will show it or not. If he wants to know about DQ, bid 6d.

If he needs to know about *both* diamond king and diamond Q, schemes are possible, but mostly I am of opinion that if you need that for the grand you probably screwed up in the previous auction and should have used cue-bidding to find out or induced partner to be the one asking so that he can find out about your DA rather than you needing to find both his DK and DQ. Or that partner is just supposed to know that these are the cards needed for grand since 5nt showed all key cards and you showed this side suit earlier in auction.

[Lovera]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-20, 09:26, said:

That's not realistic because the person being asked can't know which card the asker is missing and is most important. Bypassing your trump suit to show say a diamond card is no good if missing the Q of trumps causes you to go down in slam.
The asker, if holding the Q of trumps, *skips asking for it*. If he has trump Q and wants to know about diamond king, then bid 5nt (or maybe 5s if hearts are trumps), and responder to RKC will show it or not. If he wants to know about DQ, bid 6d.

If he needs to know about *both* diamond king and diamond Q, schemes are possible, but mostly I am of opinion that if you need that for the grand you probably screwed up in the previous auction and should have used cue-bidding to find out or induced partner to be the one asking so that he can find out about your DA rather than you needing to find both his DK and DQ. Or that partner is just supposed to know that these are the cards needed for grand since 5nt showed all key cards and you showed this side suit earlier in auction.

Maybe we're not understanding each other. The requests in the two suits mentioned above follow the same mechanics as those i.e. a 5 ♠(=?) with agreed trump ♦. The answers, in this case, are only for the King, with No Trump in response, while for the Queen indicating a suit (where there is an Ace) and in this way it differs. Instead, with 5 ♦ (after 5♣) and 5 ♥ ( after 5 ♦) asking, in addition, for the Queen of trump as is usually done, they become ambiguous. If the interrogator has i.e. the Queen of trump one of the options than can be excluded.

[Stephen Tu]

Your last post is completely undecipherable.
State a specific auction, state what suit is trumps, what bid you are asking about, and what answer(s) you consider "ambiguous" and wish to clarify.
You seem to be saying that if spades are trumps, and it goes 4nt-5c-5d (queen ask), you want some information passed about diamond honors, not just about trump Q and side kings if trump Q held. This can't be done in normal methods. The queen of trumps is too important. The person answering cannot know asker already holds Q trumps and proceed to give other info and bypass safety level of 6 trumps. If asker already holds Q of trumps and wants info about other suit he should bypass the trump queen ask, using a different ask > 5 trumps.

And there is no real ambiguity about answers. If spades are trumps, 4nt-5c-5d, usual agreements:

• 5H = SQ held, HK also held
• 5S = no SQ.
• 5nt = SQ, no side K
• 6c = SQ, club K, no HK
• 6d = SQ, diamond K, no HK, no DK
• higher = undefined, don't use if not want to confuse partner, should assume SQ held and no side kings

[Lovera]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-20, 11:28, said:

Your last post is completely undecipherable.
State a specific auction, state what suit is trumps, what bid you are asking about, and what answer(s) you consider "ambiguous" and wish to clarify.
You seem to be saying that if spades are trumps, and it goes 4nt-5c-5d (queen ask), you want some information passed about diamond honors, not just about trump Q and side kings if trump Q held. This can't be done in normal methods. The queen of trumps is too important. The person answering cannot know asker already holds Q trumps and proceed to give other info and bypass safety level of 6 trumps. If asker already holds Q of trumps and wants info about other suit he should bypass the trump queen ask, using a different ask > 5 trumps.

And there is no real ambiguity about answers. If spades are trumps, 4nt-5c-5d, usual agreements:

• 5H = SQ held, HK also held
• 5S = no SQ.
• 5nt = SQ, no side K
• 6c = SQ, club K, no HK
• 6d = SQ, diamond K, no HK, no DK
• higher = undefined, don't use if not want to confuse partner, should assume SQ held and no side kings

With ♠ as trump, the sequence 4NT-5♣, 5♦(=?) is ambigueous if the answer means: 5♥ Q of trump+K of heart/Q in diamond suit and A of heart. So with Q in spade by RKB bidder remains Q in diamond plus A in heart suit.

[Stephen Tu]

 Lovera, on 2019-September-20, 11:53, said:

With ♠ as trump, the sequence 4NT-5♣, 5♦(=?) is ambigueous if the answer means: 5♥ Q of trump+K of heart/Q in diamond suit and A of heart. So with Q in spade by RKB bidder remains Q in diamond plus A in heart suit.

5d asks for SQ specifically. It simultaneously asks for side kings but only if SQ is held.
in answer to 5d, 5H = SQ + HK. There is no ambiguity about anything else. It says nothing about the DK or DQ or the ace of hearts.
The RKB bidder knows about the ace of hearts because either he is looking at it or he knows he is missing an ace (or trump king) from the 5c response, or he knows partnership holds all the keycards.

If RKB asker wants to know about DK/DQ, then after 5H can ask with 5nt/6d respectively.
In answer to 5d, there is no way for responder to do anything but answer trump Q (bid side K/5nt) or no trump Q (bid 5S), because he doesn't know whether it is missing or not. He cannot peek in partner's hand and know that RKB bidder has Q of spades and doesn't care about that card. RKB bidder *DENIES THE QUEEN OF TRUMPS* when he bids 5D. If he already knows trump Q is held, and is interested in grand slam knowing all aces, king of trumps, and queen of trumps are accounted for, he is supposed to follow up with 5nt, specific king ask, or 6(c/d/h), specific suit ask for 3rd round control. He is supposed to ask the question he wants the answer to, not a question he already knows is unnecessary (trump q ask). Responder to RKB is not put in position to guess what partner wants to know.

[Lovera]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-20, 13:10, said:

5d asks for SQ specifically. It simultaneously asks for side kings but only if SQ is held.
in answer to 5d, 5H = SQ + HK. There is no ambiguity about anything else. It says nothing about the DK or DQ or the ace of hearts.
The RKB bidder knows about the ace of hearts because either he is looking at it or he knows he is missing an ace (or trump king) from the 5c response, or he knows partnership holds all the keycards.

If RKB asker wants to know about DK/DQ, then after 5H can ask with 5nt/6d respectively.
In answer to 5d, there is no way for responder to do anything but answer trump Q (bid side K/5nt) or no trump Q (bid 5S), because he doesn't know whether it is missing or not. He cannot peek in partner's hand and know that RKB bidder has Q of spades and doesn't care about that card. RKB bidder *DENIES THE QUEEN OF TRUMPS* when he bids 5D. If he already knows trump Q is held, and is interested in grand slam knowing all aces, king of trumps, and queen of trumps are accounted for, he is supposed to follow up with 5nt, specific king ask, or 6(c/d/h), specific suit ask for 3rd round control. He is supposed to ask the question he wants the answer to, not a question he already knows is unnecessary (trump q ask). Responder to RKB is not put in position to guess what partner wants to know.

Let us try to clarify: what you said and I agree would be the current RKCB with questioning of the step following the first answer to know about the Queen (with indication of the King aside). What I proposed concerns, at the same time as the request of the Queen, the request concerning the King / Queen into the same suit. This involves a plurality of answers -constituting ambiguity - and where some of these answers can be eliminated. This fact is a novelty that, however, involves the problem of resolving this ambiguity, since there is an implementation in the information(=not only the Queen+ a King aside).

[Stephen Tu]

What I am saying is that what you propose is both not workable, and unnecessary.
If RKB asker knows of trump Q and all keycards, he is committed to small slam, and can afford to ask for the missing diamond honor at 6 level for grand. There is no particular advantage of asking at the 5 level.
If RKB asker *does not* know of trump Q + all keycards, trump Q is of first priority as you don't want to be in grand missing the Q. He can inquire about missing diamond honor after trump Q is shown.

Don't make things complicated. Have RKB asker bid 5d if not have trump Q. RKB asker bids 5nt (or 6d) with trump Q. The responder does not have to guess. RKB asker doesn't have to guess either. No ambiguity to resolve. Just ask the question you need to know.

It's not like there is some rule that the next bid after 5c always has to be 5d.
If you are proposing something like 5h after 5d shows EITHER SQ + HK OR DK + not SQ, you are basically trying to create bidding disasters for yourself, and it's not clear what sort of hand you think you are going to gain on. You are creating a 5d = guess what I need, and 5h = I'm guessing I have it, instead of much simpler 5d = I need the trump Q, 5nt = I'm looking for a particular K (or just telling you all keycards + trump Q are held), 6d = I need the DQ.

[Lovera]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-20, 18:34, said:

What I am saying is that what you propose is both not workable, and unnecessary.
If RKB asker knows of trump Q and all keycards, he is committed to small slam, and can afford to ask for the missing diamond honor at 6 level for grand. There is no particular advantage of asking at the 5 level.
If RKB asker *does not* know of trump Q + all keycards, trump Q is of first priority as you don't want to be in grand missing the Q. He can inquire about missing diamond honor after trump Q is shown.

Don't make things complicated. Have RKB asker bid 5d if not have trump Q. RKB asker bids 5nt (or 6d) with trump Q. The responder does not have to guess. RKB asker doesn't have to guess either. No ambiguity to resolve. Just ask the question you need to know.

It's not like there is some rule that the next bid after 5c always has to be 5d.
If you are proposing something like 5h after 5d shows EITHER SQ + HK OR DK + not SQ, you are basically trying to create bidding disasters for yourself, and it's not clear what sort of hand you think you are going to gain on. You are creating a 5d = guess what I need, and 5h = I'm guessing I have it, instead of much simpler 5d = I need the trump Q, 5nt = I'm looking for a particular K (or just telling you all keycards + trump Q are held), 6d = I need the DQ.

Since we are talking about "a" positive answer (where there is something either in the suit of the query or in the suit of trump) i.e. 5 ♥ in the sequence indicated above in #8, the responder sees what he has in those "two" colors and responds accordingly, giving rise to an ambiguous response. The opener, in turn, controls what he has in those two suits to know what to exclude: in fact if he has the Queen of trump or the King in the suit of the answer then the responder is giving information in the suit of the query but if he has the Queen in ♦ or the Ace to ♥ is having informations from the Queen of trump (with the indicated King). These queries in the classical RKCB, the "Queen's Query" (= QQ) or suit specific (= SSA), are bidded in different declarative phases, are known and clear. I, on the other hand, am hypothesizing to use an SSA together with the QQ which implies, indeed, a complication in the answer (besides having a further series of other eventualities) that give rise to the need to "go step by step" in the explanation. The above, i hope, should serve to clarify how the initial ambiguity of the response by the opener would be resolved, at least in this case.

[pescetom]

 Lovera, on 2019-September-21, 07:32, said:

I, on the other hand, am hypothesizing to use an SSA together with the QQ which implies, indeed, a complication in the answer (besides having a further series of other eventualities) that give rise to the need to "go step by step" in the explanation. The above, i hope, should serve to clarify how the initial ambiguity of the response by the opener would be resolved, at least in this case.[/size]

Sorry, but I (at least) still do not understand.
Are you (as already asked) proposing that 5h after 5d shows EITHER (SQ + HK) OR (DK + not SQ) ?
Or something different that you can express in the same clear format?


Probably the best idea would be to give an example with a hand layout, an auction and a bid by bid explanation of the auction, up to and including the final slam (which could not be called safely by mere RKCB).

[johnu]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-20, 18:34, said:

What I am saying is that what you propose is both not workable, and unnecessary.

Also, theoretically unsound, a bad idea, a solution that solves a problem nobody is worried about. If you want to get to slam missing a keycard along with a trump loser, then it seems like this will work just fine.

[Lovera]

Let us try to clarify once again: what I am currently proposing would be a compatible innovation in the RKB framework. As already said, all this is better explained if we start with having the Queen of trump cards. So when declaring (...) 4NT (RKBs) -5 ♣ (0-3), 5 ♦, next step, is the "QQ". Now if you have the Queen of ♠ the partner's answer is known 5 ♠ (No Queen). Instead, as I am proposing, the negative answer on the step declaration would also include a possible negative answer to ♦: 5 ♠ No Spade Queen and in ♦ J / -. This means that if in ♦ I have the Queen with i.e. the Ace of ♥ to the side I positively mark with 5 ♥ response equal to when I am signaling the Queen of trump with the King of ♥. This "ambiguity" (because the answer of 5 ♥ provides two options = Queen of ♠ + King of ♥ / Queen of ♦ + Ace of ♥) can be, and is, resolved because the RKB declaring has the queen of trump and, in this way, we would not have the "useless" declaration of 5 ♦ (the declaring RKB is here interested in ♦ obtaining (part of) an information of his interest already at fifth level (continuing, as a complement, in a specific and further detailed way). This also serves as an easy example of resolving the ambiguity.

[Stephen Tu]

 Lovera, on 2019-September-26, 12:15, said:

Let us try to clarify once again: what I am currently proposing would be a compatible innovation in the RKB framework. As already said, all this is better explained if we start with having the Queen of trump cards. So when declaring (...) 4NT (RKBs) -5 ♣ (0-3), 5 ♦, next step, is the "QQ". Now if you have the Queen of ♠ the partner's answer is known 5 ♠ (No Regina).

If you have the queen of spades, the normal approach is *not to ask with 5d*. You already know the answer to this question, so what's the purpose of asking? If you want to know about diamond honors, ask directly with 5nt/6d. What advantage do you gain by multiplexing the question into 5d?
The main problem is that even though *you* know that you have the queen of spades, and are interested in diamond honor (or heart honors??), PARTNER does *not*. There are lots of hands where you care about the queen of trumps (don't want to bid grands without queen, generally don't want to bid small slam missing keycard + Q), but really don't care at all about say DQ (you have stiff diamond, Kx diamonds, A of diamonds and a source of tricks to discard any losers partner might have). If you take the approach that partner's non-negative response of 5H may or may not have the queen, now you are guessing on these hands, you have to waste bids on a re-ask.

You are proposing 5H = Q of spades + K of hearts or Q of diamonds + A of hearts.Well, asker of RKC should *already* know about the A of hearts, as it was a keycard. If all he cares about is the Q of diamonds for grand, why is there advantage in asking with 5d instead of 6d?
Meanwhile you are hurting the asker when he just wants to know about trump Q, and doesn't care about DQ (because he has it, or has 3rd round control himself).

Please provide example of two hands where your proposed method provides some sort of advantage, reaching a good slam (small or grand) or avoiding a bad one, that normal methods do not.

[Lovera]

 Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-26, 14:15, said:

If you have the queen of spades, the normal approach is *not to ask with 5d*. You already know the answer to this question, so what's the purpose of asking? If you want to know about diamond honors, ask directly with 5nt/6d. What advantage do you gain by multiplexing the question into 5d?
The main problem is that even though *you* know that you have the queen of spades, and are interested in diamond honor (or heart honors??), PARTNER does *not*. There are lots of hands where you care about the queen of trumps (don't want to bid grands without queen, generally don't want to bid small slam missing keycard + Q), but really don't care at all about say DQ (you have stiff diamond, Kx diamonds, A of diamonds and a source of tricks to discard any losers partner might have). If you take the approach that partner's non-negative response of 5H may or may not have the queen, now you are guessing on these hands, you have to waste bids on a re-ask.

You are proposing 5H = Q of spades + K of hearts or Q of diamonds + A of hearts.Well, asker of RKC should *already* know about the A of hearts, as it was a keycard. If all he cares about is the Q of diamonds for grand, why is there advantage in asking with 5d instead of 6d?
Meanwhile you are hurting the asker when he just wants to know about trump Q, and doesn't care about DQ (because he has it, or has 3rd round control himself).

Please provide example of two hands where your proposed method provides some sort of advantage, reaching a good slam (small or grand) or avoiding a bad one, that normal methods do not.

There are some advantages: the first is that it solves the ambiguity of 5 ♣ relative to 0-3 (it is not 0) keycards. Then with the direct query of 6 ♦ in the classic RKB we only know if it has the King or Queen in ♦. In this way we have, at a lower level, already a first revealed part (the Queen at ♦ and in addition the position of a Keycard such as the Ace of ♥ or ♠) of a developing structure on which to investigate . In fact the subsequent re-interrogation, with this method, of 6 ♦ allows to know the situation of the Kings both at ♦ and ♥ or both positions. Even so we always have the King's request with 5NT available for some other purpose.

[Stephen Tu]

If you can't tell 0 or 3 IMO almost certainly you screwed up earlier in the auction, 5 level isn't safe.

If you need *both* DK and DQ for grand, also IMO you screwed up earlier in action, slower auction would allow partner to cue bid the DK earlier, or maybe you cue the DA and get *him* excited and induce partner to keycard ask instead of you, so the person better able to count tricks is doing the asking.

Specific King ask already handles locating either or both Kings efficiently.

Basically I think you are creating difficulties for yourself and not really gaining anything in the process. Again, I challenge you to post a real actual pair of hands where you think you win.

[johnu]

 Lovera, on 2019-September-26, 16:18, said:

There are some advantages: the first is that it solves the ambiguity of 5 ♣ relative to 0-3 (it is not 0) keycards. Then with the direct query of 6 ♦ in the classic RKB we only know if it has the King or Queen in ♦. In this way we have, at a lower level, already a first revealed part (the Queen at ♦ and in addition the position of a Keycard such as the Ace of ♥ or ♠) of a developing structure on which to investigate . In fact the subsequent re-interrogation, with this method, of 6 ♦ allows to know the situation of the Kings both at ♦ and ♥ or both positions. Even so we always have the King's request with 5NT available for some other purpose.

How do you avoid a trump loser missing the trump queen after you have bypassed your security level of 5M?

[Lovera]

I never said that, especially for the big slam, the Queen of trumps on the pair's line is excluded. The indication of the re-interrogation of 6 ♦ provides a series of specific answers relating to the individual positions of the Kings in the only two suits already indicated (♦ suit of the first query and ♥ suit of the Ace to the side which confirms the diamond Queen ) which must be combined with the hand of the partner and to which it has only been hinted at in general. This type of additional bidding system may seem more complicated but should also be more effective, while the part for the request of the Kings with 5NT is always available.