[nekthen]

Does anyone use different two bids in 4th seat?

I am wondering whether it is better to revert to old school strong twos

[johnu]

nekthen, on 2019-September-15, 03:40, said:

Does anyone use different two bids in 4th seat?

I am wondering whether it is better to revert to old school strong twos

I think standard expert practice is to play ~10-14 for 4th suit weak 2's. I don't see much point in playing strong twos.

[Cthulhu D]

johnu, on 2019-September-15, 03:58, said:

I think standard expert practice is to play ~10-14 for 4th suit weak 2's. I don't see much point in playing strong twos.

That's what my regular partnership does as well. I think you want to includes hands that almost certainly don't want to be in game opposite a maximum passed hand, but do have a pretty reasonable shot of making 2M. Then it makes it hard for opponents to balance, as well as streamlines your invitational sequences.

[Tramticket]

nekthen, on 2019-September-15, 03:40, said:

Does anyone use different two bids in 4th seat?

I am wondering whether it is better to revert to old school strong twos

I think that, if you are in (say) England and were brought up playing strong twos, then it makes some sense reverting to strong twos in 4th seat. The usual argument against strong twos is that they occur too infrequently, but once everyone else has passed there is a greater likelihood of holding a suitable hand.

If you are not used to strong twos, there is little merit in learning new system with increased chance of mishaps.

Personally we play our 4th seat openings as showing a good 9 up to 13. I can't remember opening one very often.

[nekthen]

I play Lucas and multi. I think they are possibly less useful in 4th than intermediate 2s

[msjennifer]

Sir,We do not make the weak 2H/S bids any different in 4th seat .However,we guarantee two of the three tops in 4th seat.We open 1H/S with 10+ if the rule of 20 is satisfied (as per our knowledge) in the 4th seat.Since we use Reverse Drury no problem arises.We play 2D Flannery and remains the same.2C ,of course, remains the same as usual..I do not recommend this scheme to the rest ,and it is upto individual partnerships to decide what is what.My daddy uses 2D as multi and 2H/S as 5H/S and 4+C/D in all seats. Thanks.

[Cthulhu D]

msjennifer, on 2019-September-16, 01:38, said:

Sir,We do not make the weak 2H/S bids any different in 4th seat .However,we guarantee two of the three tops in 4th seat.We open 1H/S with 10+ if the rule of 20 is satisfied (as per our knowledge) in the 4th seat.Since we use Reverse Drury no problem arises.We play 2D Flannery and remains the same.2C ,of course, remains the same as usual..I do not recommend this scheme to the rest ,and it is upto individual partnerships to decide what is what.My daddy uses 2D as multi and 2H/S as 5H/S and 4+C/D in all seats. Thanks.

Why do you want to make premeptive bids in 4th? Who are you pre-empting?

[igt3]

Since there is no one to pre-empt I play them invitational. 6+suit with 2 top honours.

[igt3]

msjennifer, on 2019-September-16, 01:38, said:

Sir,We do not make the weak 2H/S bids any different in 4th seat .However,we guarantee two of the three tops in 4th seat.We open 1H/S with 10+ if the rule of 20 is satisfied (as per our knowledge) in the 4th seat.Since we use Reverse Drury no problem arises.We play 2D Flannery and remains the same.2C ,of course, remains the same as usual..I do not recommend this scheme to the rest ,and it is upto individual partnerships to decide what is what.My daddy uses 2D as multi and 2H/S as 5H/S and 4+C/D in all seats. Thanks.

Open weak in 3rd seat with Drury available is fine, but why open weak in 4th?

[dsLawsd]

It depends on your bidding system. Strong clubs in particular.
I like 12-16 with a good suit, 6 cards. 10-15 for diamonds when some other use is not chosen. For hearts 11-16 very good suit.
Take into account the use of Drury and or semi=forcing 1NT.

[awm]

Suppose you hold:

♠KQTxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣xx

The auction begins with three passes. Do you open or pass?

Assuming that you (like me) open, it seems much better to open 2♠ than 1♠. This makes it harder for the opponents to find their round suit fit (if they have one). Assuming 2♠ is "weak" it will also prevent partner from trying to invite with a non-fitting ten count (you really don't want to hear 1♠-1NT-2X-2NT with partner holding x KQxx KQx Jxxxx for example).

This is why I prefer to play "weak" two bids in fourth seat. They aren't 6-counts (I'd never have a 6-count in 4th anyway; someone would have opened); they show hands which range from "the weakest hand I would open in 4th chair" up to "the strongest hand that will not make game opposite a non-fitting passed hand." For me this is roughly 8-12. The idea is that partner passes any time he has no fit, bids 2NT (asking) with a fit and a max pass, and is well-prepared to penalize if opponents do decide to bid over my fourth-seat preempt and it turns out to be a misfit. This also means we don't need any special methods (or even really a range adjustment) to deal with some 10-14 or 12-16 or "strong two" range that never happens in any other seat.

[Joe_Old]

Cthulhu D, on 2019-September-15, 04:02, said:

That's what my regular partnership does as well. I think you want to includes hands that almost certainly don't want to be in game opposite a maximum passed hand, but do have a pretty reasonable shot of making 2M. Then it makes it hard for opponents to balance, as well as streamlines your invitational sequences.

The entire concept of opening in 4th seat is to go plus. As you point out, opening at the 2 level makes it more difficult for the opponents to get in the auction, but solid players that I know don't use the bid to rule out game. Rather, a 4th seat two bid is used as a picture bid, with defined parameters (quality of suit, HCP range, shape, vulnerability) that permit a passed partner to re-evaluate and invite, compete or bid game (however rare that might be) with the appropriate hands. Obviously, discussion and agreements are necessary.

I've also seen discussion related to the form of scoring. In matchpoints you might want to shoot for a top on +110 or +140 with empty values, where in IMPs you would not care to take a risk.

One partnership I often play against (50,000+ masterpoints) adjusts the range and quality of suit depending upon vulnerability (12 - 15 HCP, 2 of 3 top honors when vulnerable, 10 - 14 HCP, any 6 cards when not vulnerable), hoping to identify skinny vulnerable games.

Essentially, a 2 bid in 4th seat should be viewed as a constructive bid.

[BillAust]

No point in premptive since pass finishes the bidding.
If I am less than an opening, then opps most likely have more points than us, so pass.
So 2 bid should be opening plus 6 card suit.

[Cthulhu D]

awm, on 2019-September-16, 15:32, said:

Suppose you hold:

♠KQTxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣xx

The auction begins with three passes. Do you open or pass?

Assuming that you (like me) open, it seems much better to open 2♠ than 1♠. This makes it harder for the opponents to find their round suit fit (if they have one). Assuming 2♠ is "weak" it will also prevent partner from trying to invite with a non-fitting ten count (you really don't want to hear 1♠-1NT-2X-2NT with partner holding x KQxx KQx Jxxxx for example).

This is why I prefer to play "weak" two bids in fourth seat. They aren't 6-counts (I'd never have a 6-count in 4th anyway; someone would have opened); they show hands which range from "the weakest hand I would open in 4th chair" up to "the strongest hand that will not make game opposite a non-fitting passed hand." For me this is roughly 8-12. The idea is that partner passes any time he has no fit, bids 2NT (asking) with a fit and a max pass, and is well-prepared to penalize if opponents do decide to bid over my fourth-seat preempt and it turns out to be a misfit. This also means we don't need any special methods (or even really a range adjustment) to deal with some 10-14 or 12-16 or "strong two" range that never happens in any other seat.

would you open if the hearts and spades were swapped?

[awm]

Cthulhu D, on 2019-September-16, 19:15, said:

would you open if the hearts and spades were swapped?

Yes. I think it's more obvious at IMPs; passing six-loser hands like this one seems like a way to miss a game pretty often. It's possible that opponents can overcall and go plus in spades of course, but this is more dangerous at the two-level (especially with partner having a penalty double available) and they will occasionally give up a number.

[msjennifer]

Cthulhu D, on 2019-September-16, 03:29, said:

Why do you want to make premeptive bids in 4th? Who are you pre-empting?

Sir, there is no involvement of preemption in our bids.We shall have to pass all such hands in fourth seat otherwise .I have passed once holding xx-Axx-Axx-Axxx in the 4th seat.But we do not like to pass a 6 carder major suit hand with 2 honours and 6 to 11 HCP.To be frank We do not think we are preempting anyone by these weak bids .They are standard and all aggressive oriented players would like to bid the same way. As already clarified we upgrade the hands if they satisfy rule of twenty and it is certainly not preemption but aggressive but logical bidding. Since there is only a possibility of making only a part game opposite a passed partner better to use PFA and reach the par contract right away.THANX.

[Cthulhu D]

awm, on 2019-September-17, 02:16, said:

Yes. I think it's more obvious at IMPs; passing six-loser hands like this one seems like a way to miss a game pretty often. It's possible that opponents can overcall and go plus in spades of course, but this is more dangerous at the two-level (especially with partner having a penalty double available) and they will occasionally give up a number.

I wonder if this is related to how you open in 2nd - I'm struggling to imagine a situation in which a 8-9 count makes game vs partners maximum passed hand and in which the opponents don't also open the bidding. Oppo has 21HCP and therefore someone is probably going to have opened?

[miamijd]

Cthulhu D, on 2019-September-17, 17:46, said:

I wonder if this is related to how you open in 2nd - I'm struggling to imagine a situation in which a 8-9 count makes game vs partners maximum passed hand and in which the opponents don't also open the bidding. Oppo has 21HCP and therefore someone is probably going to have opened?

Not hard to imagine at all. Let's say you have the hand awm posited:

♠KQTxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣xx

Why can't partner have something like:

♠J9xx ♥Axxx ♦xx ♣KQx

Making 4♠ with your eyes closed the vast majority of the time.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cthulhu D]

miamijd, on 2019-September-17, 17:54, said:

Not hard to imagine at all. Let's say you have the hand awm posited:

♠KQTxxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣xx

Why can't partner have something like:

♠J9xx ♥Axxx ♦xx ♣KQx

Making 4♠ with your eyes closed the vast majority of the time.

Cheers,
Mike

I thought about exactly that hand, and my regular partnership would have opened in 1st or 3rd as the other hands have to include an 11 count with an ace or a king which meets our standards for an opening: and you probably even have heart length which makes opening light even better.

For example:

x
KQJxx
KJx
Jx

I'm going to open that in third without a moments thought. I'll much less happily open it in first, but it's got such an obviously great lead so I will. You have to really try to come out with a pair of hands in the opponents that won't open. Any 12 count is probably going to get opened, so you need a hand like this:

xx
KJx
KQJx
xxxx

opposite:

A
Qxxxx
xxx
AJxx

And I'd open the 2nd hand in third despite the terrible heart suit because of the tasty rebid. The problem is that the hands that will work are hands with 10 card spade fits, but those hands are all very likely to attract an opening from somewhere else.