[thepossum]

.... should/could I have done something better to get closer to grand or is this a reasonable contract given NS hands. If I had been asking as south I think I would have asked for kings and possibly gone to grand on my singleton club. Sadly North didnt know

---

[helene_t]

Nah, South would bid the same with a heart or diamond less and a club more, so the grand could depend on a club finesse. And there is no prospect of discarding all your club losers, unless South has ♦AQJxxx which is of course unlikely.

[ahydra]

A 2C opener should normally be captain. I feel 4D (cue) is a better call than 4NT. Whether that gets you to the grand is not clear though - after 4NT-5C (1 or 4) and knowing partner holds CA and DK, South could consider having a stab at it with 6D (third-round ask), but that still doesn't guarantee North has 4=2 in the majors rather than 3=3.

And no, I wouldn't be upset with partner. The correct response is "hmm, tricky hand, let's discuss later"

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

ahydra, on 2019-August-05, 02:09, said:

A 2C opener should normally be captain. I feel 4D (cue) is a better call than 4NT. Whether that gets you to the grand is not clear though - after 4NT-5C (1 or 4) and knowing partner holds CA and DK, South could consider having a stab at it with 6D (third-round ask), but that still doesn't guarantee North has 4=2 in the majors rather than 3=3.

And no, I wouldn't be upset with partner. The correct response is "hmm, tricky hand, let's discuss later"

ahydra

but is 4♦ a cue ? what are you supposed to do with x, x, KQJxx, AKxxxx where you want to be in a diamond grand

As it is, you want to be in 6 I think, the grand is not great and could be a lot worse so no criticism

[Tramticket]

I don't like the 4NT bid. If 4♦ is natural (I think that it is more useful as a cue bid), then 4♠ would be a better bid than 4NT. It must be 100% forcing after a 2♣ opening and a positive response.

But I wouldn't be losing sleep over missing this grand.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-05, 02:31, said:

I don't like the 4NT bid. If 4♦ is natural (I think that it is more useful as a cue bid), then 4♠ would be a better bid than 4NT. It must be 100% forcing after a 2♣ opening and a positive response.

But I wouldn't be losing sleep over missing this grand.

4♠ would be my bid, I'm very minimum for 3♣ the way we play, and 4♠ is explicitly forcing for us, although we wouldn't open 2♣, we'd start with 1♠.

[thepossum]

Thanks all I wasn't too upset after the initial reaction(seeing the extra Ace) and thinking about it. Probably well judged by North The IMPs just stung a little I was disappointed we didnt go through cues a bit. Seems a few in the know found a way to be the blackwood asker rather than North

[pescetom]

North's clubs are not worth 3C by my criteria. 2D usually makes things simpler and this is true here too. I'm on a small phone, but it looks as if North could call it with reasonable chances whatever South's club control is about:
2c 2d
2s 3c
3h 3s
4c 4d
4h 5c (odd keycards)
5d 5s
6h (Q) 7s
p

[hrothgar]

I might be misisng something, but is this really a hand where you want to be in a grand?

You look to have 5 spades, 2 Hearts, 2 Diamonds and a Club off the top.

So you need another three tricks

A Diamond ruff brings you to 11
A Heart ruff to 12, however, what is your 13th trick?

I don't think that the odds of either

A Club finesse
A 2nd Heart ruff
Ruffing out the King of Clubs

are good enough to warrant bidding 7

[Tramticket]

hrothgar, on 2019-August-05, 07:39, said:

I don't think that the odds [...] are good enough to warrant bidding 7

It succeeds if trumps are 2-2 (approx 40%) and failing that, if the club finesse works (half of the remaining 60%)*. This gives about 70%.

This is not a silly Grand - IF you can find out that North has these exact high cards and a doubleton heart and diamond. But I'm not convinced that you can find out enough to make the judgment.


*You can't combine the odds ofg dropping the club king with taking a club finesse.

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-05, 08:29, said:

This is not a silly Grand - IF you can find out that North has these exact high cards and a doubleton heart and diamond. But I'm not convinced that you can find out enough to make the judgment.

In the auction I posted earlier, North knows that South has ♠AKQxx ♥AKxx ♦Axx ♣x (or perhaps ♠AKQxx ♥AKxx ♦Ax ♣Kx if he would not open this as NT). That should be enough for him to make the judgement about clubs I think.

[Tramticket]

pescetom, on 2019-August-05, 09:40, said:

In the auction I posted earlier, North knows that South has ♠AKQxx ♥AKxx ♦Axx ♣x (or perhaps ♠AKQxx ♥AKxx ♦Ax ♣Kx if he would not open this as NT). That should be enough to make the judgement about clubs I think.

I'll have to take your word for that since you have ascribed meanings to any of the bids!

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-05, 09:45, said:

I'll have to take your word for that since you have ascribed meanings to any of the bids!

I did ascribe the two unusual ones... I was on a cell phone as mentioned and cooking lunch
Here are all the meanings:

2♣ - 2♦ (waiting)
2♠ (5+) - 3♣ (good 5+)
3♥ (4+) - 3♠ (fit, some slam potential)
4♣ (control) - 4♦ (control)
4♥ (control) - 5♣ (control, odd keycards)
5♦ (control) - 5♠ (no ♥ control)
6♥ (control, all keycards + Q♠) - 7♠
p

[wuudturner]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-05, 08:29, said:

It succeeds if trumps are 2-2 (approx 40%) and failing that, if the club finesse works (half of the remaining 60%)*. This gives about 70%.

Even suppose trumps are 2-2.

You need to ruff three red cards in dummy if you are to avoid a club hook. You have 6 hearts between the hands, so on the 4th round of hearts, someone will likely be able to overruff dummy, unless you have drawn trumps already. And if you have drawn trumps, then there are only two trumps remaining in dummy to ruff three losers. That makes a grand difficult to make without finding the club king. NOT anywhere near 70%.

[Cyberyeti]

This is one of those hands where the big hand doesn't know enough about whether grand is good, make dummy's spades J10xx and it is.

[neilkaz]

I am happy to be in 6 here.

[thepossum]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-05, 02:55, said:

4♠ would be my bid, I'm very minimum for 3♣ the way we play, and 4♠ is explicitly forcing for us, although we wouldn't open 2♣, we'd start with 1♠.

I was wondering about pros and cons of 1♠ vs 2♣. I feel sometimes that the game force restricts opportunity later (although I dont want to risk being left in 1♠) if partner has nothing.

How would you decide on which strong hands to use 2♣ vs 1♠. This one fitted my criteria for 2C. I tend to use it a bit light on points sometimes if I feel the losers/shape looks good

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2019-August-05, 20:56, said:

I was wondering about pros and cons of 1♠ vs 2♣. I feel sometimes that the game force restricts opportunity later (although I dont want to risk being left in 1♠) if partner has nothing.

How would you decide on which strong hands to use 2♣ vs 1♠. This one fitted my criteria for 2C. I tend to use it a bit light on points sometimes if I feel the losers/shape looks good

I use criteria that would be different to yours, because of some other bits of system we have.

We play explicitly:

2♣ is forcing to game if not followed by a NT rebid.
2♣ - positive response is F4N unless you've already established a suit is open

Which means mine has a better minimum requirement than yours will have.

[thepossum]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-06, 02:33, said:

I use criteria that would be different to yours, because of some other bits of system we have.

We play explicitly:

2♣ is forcing to game if not followed by a NT rebid.
2♣ - positive response is F4N unless you've already established a suit is open

Which means mine has a better minimum requirement than yours will have.

I've become more flexible with use of game force. When I started out with Acol I used strong 2s which gave us more scope for borderline 7.5-8.5 trick hands. Since I started playing weak 2s, 2C is the only game force I have and I use it more liberally than the strict point and trick guidelines, but usually with 4 or fewer losers, or sometimes as few as 8 tricks, depending on shape.

I would tend to stop before game only with a double negative (cheaper minor) which I think GiB plays if my memory serves correctly. I dont remember stopping many times before game yet after a 2C opener but may have done once or twice with GiB. I miss strong 2s sometimes

[helene_t]

FWIW I think it's reasonable to open this hand 2♣.

- While it may be forcing to game, it doesn't mean that your are excited about getting to game opposite a misfitting yarb. It just means that you think that opening 2♣ is the most practical approach. That you may end up in a very thin game is a calculated risk.
- If you open 2♣, you don't have much of a rebid problem. If partner responds 2♦, you rebid 2♠, and if partner doesn't raise spades you can show the hearts next round.
- If you open 1♠, I would be worried that it will be passed out and partner has 4+ hearts, in which case we probably have game. Note that 1♠ openings are passed out more frequently than other one-of-a-suit openings.

I don't think the 3♣ response is good, though. It takes away a lot of bidding space so it must be well-defined: 6+ clubs, no second suit. I would respond 2♦ with this hand. Or 2NT if you think that right-siding is not a priority and you are obliged to show that you have a semi-balanced hand with some points.