[rg14]

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

[Tramticket]

rg14, on 2018-September-01, 23:28, said:

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

It is difficult to answer this question without knowing what is your basic system? Four or five-card majors? 2-over-1 game forcing? Is a 1NT response to 1M forcing?

[Stephen Tu]

Depends if you are playing 4 cd majors or 5 cd majors, and on agreements. Playing a 4 cd major system (Acol), you'd definitely want 4+.

Playing 5 cd majors, it depends; many require 4 for the immediate raise, putting 3 cd limit raises through a forcing or semi-forcing 1NT response. Some put distributional 3 cd raises directly to 3 with the flatter going through 1nt. Without a forcing NT (e.g. vanilla SAYC), some choose to limit raise with all 3 carders in range. Some fancy system innovators might use an 2/1 artificial support bid to show a limit raise (+ maybe other hand types) in a jurisdiction that allows this.

Playing old fashioned SA (as opposed to 2/1 GF), some 3 cd raises can go through a 2/1 followed by supporting the major.

[ahydra]

If playing 2/1 then 10-11 points is a forcing NT followed by a jump to 3. An average-or-better 12 should be treated as a GF, so 2x followed by supporting opener's suit. If you don't play 2/1 and like to have four cards for a direct jump (my preferred style), 3-card limit raises start with a natural 2/1 then jump to 3M.

ahydra

[msjennifer]

There are two views to be taken into consideration when giving raises in the major suit. (1)Constructive raises .(2) Preemptive raises. Personally,We play the constructive raises by using the LTC.So a single raise is given holding Nine losers with 3/4 card support.A 7 loser hand is presumed to be held by opener.HCP are not given importance.A double raise is given holding 8 losers and with 7 losers and no good 5 card suit a raise to the game is given.For a single raise xxx support is enough and for a double raise at least Qxx or xxxx is guaranteed support.Since this is a natural bidding forum I have not mentioned gadgets like BERGEN raises.I shall give only one frivolous example of preemptive raise playing Precision,an artificial system wherein 1H/S is a 11-15 opening.Partner opened 1S and I held Jxxxxx-VOID-Jxx-xxxx.When RHO passed I bid 4S knowing fully well that opponents are holding game zone hands.This hand has 8 losers but only 2 HCP. The result was shocking ! LHO doubled holding 20 HCP and hold your breath AKQ1086 of SPADES..RHO took it as a TOD and the rest is not worth describing.Partner had psyched.

[hrothgar]

rg14, on 2018-September-01, 23:28, said:

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

(I am going to assume that you are playing 5CM)

Back in the weird old days, the primary purpose of a limit raise was to inform partner that you had

1. A fit (3+ card support)
2. Enough high card strength to invite game

People typically used the auction 1M - 3M to show this hand type.

Over time, players came to appreciate that limit raised with 4+ card support often produced many more tricks that limit raises that only had three card support. As such, they started looking for ways to distinguish between the two types of hands.

In non competitive auctions, this normally meant playing a forcing NT over 1M openings which allowed you to play

1M - 3M as a limit raise with 4+ card support

1M - 1N
2x - 3M as a limit raise with 3 card support.

[PhilG007]

rg14, on 2018-September-01, 23:28, said:

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

If you are playing 5 card majors,then 3 card support will be sufficient provided you have the required pointage.
If the support is headed by an honour,then so much the better.
The presence of intermediate cards would also influence my decision.
Holding something like ♠10xx ♥K10x ♦AQ9 ♣Q9xx opposite a
major suit opening and i would definitely be raising to the 3 level.

[fromageGB]

We can't offer concrete suggestions until you have answered Tramticket's questions, but to follow up Stephen Tu's excellent summary, I really think you should distinguish between 3 card support and 4 card support. That's normally a whole trick difference. Not only does it help opener decide on game, or slam investigations, but it is vital in knowing how to deal with any opposition interference.

Personally, I also think 10-12 is too wide a range for a bid at the 3-level (unless it can be resolved, in which case it is not wide enough), as opener has to make an immediate game decision. The difference between 10 and 12 could be a trick. All else being equal, I like to have these bids just a 2-point range.

[Vampyr]

PhilG007, on 2018-September-03, 06:07, said:

If you are playing 5 card majors,then 3 card support will be sufficient provided you have the required pointage.

This is not a mainstream approach. As others in this thread have noted, the usual method is to start with 1NT if it is forcing, or else 2/1, both followed by 3 of partner’s major

[P_Marlowe]

rg14, on 2018-September-01, 23:28, said:

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

The main question is, what do you mean by saying, your hand has 10-12 points.
The 9th trump is worth something, i.e. if you know you have a 9 card fit, you need less HCP
strength to make an invitational move. In short: If you count the 9th trump as 2 points
(or 1.5 points or ...), than stick with the 10-12 range, and you will be doing fine.
The benefit: You dont need to add. conventional methods.
Explicit showing the 9th trump is more important, if the partnership tries to investigate slams,
and / or if the partnership tries to decide between 3NT and 4M.
In the latter case: If you cant show the 9th trump, always stick with 4M.

[nige1]

After a 1♠ opener (whether 4 or 5-card), I like

• 2♣ = ART. Opening values. Then a 2♦ rebid confirms a sound opener.
• 2♦ = TRF. Wide range. 5+♥.
• 2♥ = TRF. 8+ HCP. Good 3-card raise.
• 2/3/4♠ = NAT Weak raises.
• 2N + = ART 4+card raise.

[mikestar13]

Vampyr, on 2018-September-03, 10:00, said:

This is not a mainstream approach. As others in this thread have noted, the usual method is to start with 1NT if it is forcing, or else 2/1, both followed by 3 of partner's major

If partner agrees, I take a "semi-mainstream" approach: a limit raise is 4+ trumps or 3 trumps with a stiff. Other 3 limit card raises start with 1NT, whether forcing or semi-forcing.

[HardVector]

rg14, on 2018-September-01, 23:28, said:

Do you need 4 card support to raise 1 heart or 1 spade to 3 level , showing 10-12 points ?
What do you respond with hands with 3 card support and 10-12 points?

If you are playing limit raises with 5 card major suit openings, then yes, you should have 4+. If you are playing 2/1, you can bid a forcing 1n then rebid 3M to show a 3 card raise. If you are playing a standard Am. kind of system, then you can bid a suit, then support partner by bidding 3M to show 3 card support and a side suit. This will occasionally require you to bid a 4 card minor at the 2 level, this is fine. Just don't bid 2h after a 1s opener with just 4, you should have 5 here.