[luis]

I agree with Roland, this should be in the Conditions of Contest.
The only reason I can find for not appearing in VG is if you have run from work, called sick or something like that to play... But then you can play with a fake name :-)
like... "Alice in Wonderland" and "Dr Who" on vugraph.

My suggestion is to offer players the option to remain anonymous so we can watch the show anyway and they won't be embarrased.

[shoeless]

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 08:22 AM, said:

Do you think it's their legitimate right to tell the organisers: "Sorry, but we don't want to appear on vugraph"?

So the chief tournament director or whoever must announce: "Sorry all, there will be no broadcast from the final. One team refuses to play on vugraph".

Sure it's their legitimate right to ask. However, if appearing on vugraph is clearly a condition of contest then I think the organizer's response is most appropriately "Okay, you forfeit the match." or if in a playoff "Okay, is the team you beat still here? They need to be told they are playing the next round due to your default."

Internet vugraph has changed the world of bridge dramatically - on any given day hundreds of viewers watch folks play live. Of course this changes the dimension of the game and some players aren't comfortable with this. They might as well get used to it - because I think it's only going to grow.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 04:47 PM, said:

Which copyright? My initial post relates to appearing on vugraph or not. If it is clearly stated in the Conditions of Contest that everyone must accept to be on vugraph at any time if asked to by the organisers, there is not a copyright issue at all. Either you play according to the rules and regulations or you stay away from the tournament.

You can't enter a competition, knowing that the rules are such, and then later claim the right to refuse.

In other words: If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Roland

My point is a simple one:

1. I agree with you that issues surround Vugraph should be built into the Conditions of Contest for events.

2. The reluctance of certain of players to appear on Vugraph is not a complex issue. This can be addressed very simply.

3. Intellectual property issues surrounding hand records is a VERY complex issue. I argue that this should be addressed quickly and comprehensively.

From my perspective, its critical to differentiate between hand records and commentary. I favor a regulatory structure in which hand records (statistics) pass into the public domain however, however, protection is accorded to analysis...

[Walddk]

shoeless, on Apr 20 2005, 08:58 AM, said:

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 08:22 AM, said:

Do you think it's their legitimate right to tell the organisers: "Sorry, but we don't want to appear on vugraph"?

So the chief tournament director or whoever must announce: "Sorry all, there will be no broadcast from the final. One team refuses to play on vugraph".

Sure it's their legitimate right to ask. However, if appearing on vugraph is clearly a condition of contest then I think the organizer's response is most appropriately "Okay, you forfeit the match." or if in a playoff "Okay, is the team you beat still here? They need to be told they are playing the next round due to your default."

Internet vugraph has changed the world of bridge dramatically - on any given day hundreds of viewers watch folks play live. Of course this changes the dimension of the game and some players aren't comfortable with this. They might as well get used to it - because I think it's only going to grow.

We agree shoeless. My point was and is that you can't refuse if it's stated in the CoC. If it is, you have no longer a legitimate right to stay away from vugraph.

Roland

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Apr 20 2005, 08:59 AM, said:

3. Intellectual property issues surrounding hand records is a VERY complex issue. I argue that this should be addressed quickly and comprehensively.

From my perspective, its critical to differentiate between hand records and commentary. I favor a regulatory structure in which hand records (statistics) pass into the public domain however, however, protection is accorded to analysis...

As to your 3. it is clear to me that you are a public person once you decide to enter a competition at domestic championship level or better. You have no right to remain anonymous and you have no copyright to hand records or commentary.

I am not a lawyer (thank goodness) and I may be skating on thin ace; this is just my view. The same goes for commentators' comments. They don't belong to them. They belong to the organisers and/or BBO if the commentary is made here. That's what we get "paid" for: to deliver comments during vugraph broadcasts.

Roland

[shoeless]

I see a new career in the offing - sports psychologist specializing in preparing players to appear on vugraph.

[Walddk]

In about a month I will appear on BBO vugraph from Scotland. I am on a team with Mike Lawrence among other world class players. I know what's involved, since I'm a public figure on BBO. Around 571 pairs of eyes will be watching closely and spot the tiniest error when I make one (I did not say if).

The laughing stock perhaps even, who knows. That's the risk, that's part of the game, but I don't lose any sleep over it. You play at that level and accept the consequences, good or bad.

Roland

[Chamaco]

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 02:26 PM, said:

That's the risk, that's part of the game, but I don't lose any sleep over it. You play at that level and accept the consequences, good or bad.

Roland

Roland, this what happens to you, because you have a lot of experience, and you are used to tough competition and related broadcast.
This does not necessarily apply to everyone else.

But suppose you are in a Team that reaches a "once-in -a lifetime" finals of the National Championship.
You are not Roland Wald, you are not a champion, you know that you play worse with an audience watching.
You have never reached a top-level qualifications, perhaps you know you are in your late 70s and probably this is once-in-a-lifetime occurrence, it won't happen again.

In that case you do not care of "learning to stand the pressure" because you feel you won't have other chances in the future: you just want to play at your best, and if the no-audience condition helps you making less silly mistakes, it is understandable to go for it.

You will lose anyway, but giving your best. Who cares of "making experience", you care only to do your best.

In my view this attitude is understandable.

[Walddk]

Chamaco, on Apr 20 2005, 09:37 AM, said:

You are not Roland Wald, you are not a champion, you know that you play worse with an audience watching.

How would one know if one hasn't tried it before? As far as I am concerned, the exact opposite happened. I played very well on my first vugraph appearance. It's not a law that you must play badly just because people are watching your every move.

Nervous yes, but that's not necessarily bad. Maybe you even rise to the occasion and play better than you otherwise would have done. Give it a chance, because if you don't, you will never know what you missed.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 05:10 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 20 2005, 08:59 AM, said:

3. Intellectual property issues surrounding hand records is a VERY complex issue.  I argue that this should be addressed quickly and comprehensively.

From my perspective, its critical to differentiate between hand records and commentary.  I favor a regulatory structure in which hand records (statistics) pass into the public domain however, however, protection is accorded to analysis...

As to your 3. it is clear to me that you are a public person once you decide to enter a competition at domestic championship level or better. You have no right to remain anonymous and you have no copyright to hand records or commentary.

I am not a lawyer (thank goodness) and I may be skating on thin ace; this is just my view. The same goes for commentators' comments. They don't belong to them. They belong to the organisers and/or BBO if the commentary is made here. That's what we get "paid" for: to deliver comments during vugraph broadcasts.

Roland

In principle, I agree with. This is the way that things should be.

In practice, the courts have permitted Major League Baseball to copyright statistics.
I am merely noting that the Bridge community (which is not necessarily the same as the Bridge Pro community) would be best served if these issues were hashed out...

[mrdct]

At two of the Australian national events that I covered last year the Australian Bridge Federation only allowed single-table visible coverage; apparently so that if a team wanted to "hide" a nervous pair they could.

At more recent Australian events shown on BBO the ABF have allowed dual-table coverage. Interestingly, the supplementary regulations for the recent seniors playoffs includes this:

"6.5 The Convenor may, without notice, designate any table as a Vugraph table and no changes to seating are permitted if already posted."

This is obviously a pleasing development which will make things a lot easier for people in Australia seeking to undertake BBO vugraph presentations.

It is still a good idea, however, to speak to the organisers/convenors nice and early to get something sensible about vugraph into the regulations of the event you'd like to cover.

[luke warm]

i don't understand mauro's point at all, and i understand richard's only slightly better... if, as a condition of playing in my tournament, you agree to your matches being shown on vugraph, then on vugraph they will be shown... if you do not want them there, do not play in my tournament

sorta like 'no psych' tourneys, eh?

[Brandal]

luke warm, on Apr 27 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

i don't understand mauro's point at all, and i understand richard's only slightly better... if, as a condition of playing in my tournament, you agree to your matches being shown on vugraph, then on vugraph they will be shown... if you do not want them there, do not play in my tournament

sorta like 'no psych' tourneys, eh?

what if YOU'RE copyrighted?

or dislike creme brulee?

[fred]

hrothgar, on Apr 20 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

Walddk, on Apr 20 2005, 05:10 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 20 2005, 08:59 AM, said:

3. Intellectual property issues surrounding hand records is a VERY complex issue.  I argue that this should be addressed quickly and comprehensively.

From my perspective, its critical to differentiate between hand records and commentary.  I favor a regulatory structure in which hand records (statistics) pass into the public domain however, however, protection is accorded to analysis...

As to your 3. it is clear to me that you are a public person once you decide to enter a competition at domestic championship level or better. You have no right to remain anonymous and you have no copyright to hand records or commentary.

I am not a lawyer (thank goodness) and I may be skating on thin ace; this is just my view. The same goes for commentators' comments. They don't belong to them. They belong to the organisers and/or BBO if the commentary is made here. That's what we get "paid" for: to deliver comments during vugraph broadcasts.

Roland

In principle, I agree with. This is the way that things should be.

In practice, the courts have permitted Major League Baseball to copyright statistics.
I am merely noting that the Bridge community (which is not necessarily the same as the Bridge Pro community) would be best served if these issues were hashed out...

I am not exactly an expert on this either, but as I understand it, bridge data is not subject to copyright law, but vugraph commentary is. The difference has to do with something known as "creative content". In the same way, Alan Truscott could not legally prevent someone from making use of the deals he writes up in the New York Times, but it would be a violation of copyright law to steal his writeup of those deals.

Sure we good get into a symantic argument about what makes bridge data "not creative" but commentary "creative", but I am pretty sure the courts (in the USA at least) have already dealt with this issue. The case was Motorola versus the National Basketball Association. I suspect that anyone who is interested can find out more about this case by doing a web search.

As I understand it, baseball statistics are not subject to copyright law. Maybe there are some real lawyers out there who can fill us in. I could easier be totally wrong about all of this, but I did have a lawyer do some research for me when some of our competitors were claiming copyright of bridge data that they were collecting through vugraph.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mrdct]

fred, on Apr 28 2005, 07:03 PM, said:

I am not exactly an expert on this either, but as I understand it, bridge data is not subject to copyright law, but vugraph commentary is.

That being the case, perhaps it would be prudent for BBO vugraph commentators to somehow waive their intellectual property rights in relation to their commentary. A sentance to that effect could be included in the BBO software licence agreement that we all agree to each time we upgrade to a new version.