[helene_t]

2♦*-2NT
3♦**-3♥?

*=multi
**=minimum with spades

I strugle to find a useful definition of 3♥. Drop-dead is an option, maybe? Natural invite or natural forcing is of questionable value since it is not clear what such a hand would have done if opener had shown a max (or if opps had interfered). Biedemeijer defined it as a general game try in spades, asking for a "good minimum", but that strikes me as useless since if you really want to seperate three different strengths, it would be better to play
2♦-2NT
3♥*-3♠**
*=intermediate or max with spades
**=non-forcing
since that will at least right-side the contract.

I suppose a help suit trial or such is also a possible meaning? Or maybe a cuebid agreeing spades?

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2017-January-30, 03:27, said:

Natural invite or natural forcing is of questionable value since it is not clear what such a hand would have done if opener had shown a max (or if opps had interfered).

I assume you play

2♦-2N; ?:

3♣ = MIN w/ H
3♦ = MIN w/ S

and either

1)

3♥ = MAX w/ H
3♠ = MAX w/ S [will bury any 5-3 H fit]

or

2)

3♥ = MAX w/ S
3♠ = MAX w/ H [will bury any 5-3 S fit].

Change those to

1')

3♥ = MAX w/ H
...3♠ = GF, 5+ S
3♠ = MAX w/ S and 2- H
3N = MAX w/ S and 3 H

and

2')

3♥ = MAX w/ S
...3♠ = GF, 5+ H
3♠ = MAX w/ H and 2- S
3N = MAX w/ H and 3 S.

Then it makes perfect sense to play

2♦-2N; 3♦-3♥ = GF, 5+ H.

[manudude03]

I used to play 2D-2N-3D-3H as asking partner to bid game if they had a good suit. Now I agree it is better played as natural GF.

[helene_t]

Thanks.

But if 3♥ is natural GF, what would such a hand do after
2♦-2NT
3♥*
*max with spades
?

I suppose you could, if 3♠ is now forcing, making 4m show a choice of game with hearts. Or, alternatively, if 3♠ is not forcing, play 4♣ as a slam try in hearts or COG while 4♦ is a slam try in spades but I think it becomes a bit cluttered.

I'd rather just respond 2♥ if I have a constructive hand with long hearts and short spades.

[Phil]

If you play 2D 3H as p/c (I thought this was standard but maybe not) then the call needs to be natural.

If you have a direct way to show hearts the call is useless. Its also not coming up a whole lot so keeping it as DNE is fine too.

[gnasher]

You could play it as a shortage ask.

[Cyberyeti]

Back in the days when I used to play a multi with a massive range for the weak 2, we used to play:

2♦-2N
3♦(on a range of 1-4 with 1 being the weakest, a 1,2 or 4 weak 2 in spades)-3♥(which ?)
3♠ - 1
4♠ - 2
anything else - 4

[helene_t]

Phil, on 2017-January-30, 06:51, said:

If you play 2D 3H as p/c (I thought this was standard but maybe not) then the call needs to be natural.

If you have a direct way to show hearts the call is useless. Its also not coming up a whole lot so keeping it as DNE is fine too.

Yes, 3♥ is P/C.

I thought it was standard that a constructive hand with hearts starts with 2♥, expecting to get another bite? Yes, we may play 2♥ in our 12-card fit but even then, opps usually have a 10-card spades fit so they might rescue us.

[Zelandakh]

Some options I have seen:-

1. General game try - this allows you to split your weak 2 range into 3 parts instead of 2. I believe this is the most commonly used meaning.
2. Suit quality ask - this gets you back some of what you lost by not playing Ogust but is more common if 3♦ showed a maximum.
3. Shortage ask - similar to #2 but against a shortage query. Notice that this cannot be done below 3NT so it requires a hand willing to play at least 4♠; thus it probably also combines better wih 3♦ max.
4. GF and natural - probably not very good theoretically but keeping your unusual bids natural is not such a bad idea.
5. Slammy with a specific minor - this fills in a gap in some response structures that use an immediate 3♣ or 3♦ for something else.

[Vampyr]

I don't usually play Multi, but I thought that 2♦-2NT; 3♦ = maximum with spades was standard.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2017-February-01, 22:19, said:

I don't usually play Multi, but I thought that 2♦-2NT; 3♦ = maximum with spades was standard.

There are 2 common schemes of the 2x2 type. One is:-
3♣ = max, ♥
3♦ = max, ♠
3♥ = min, ♥
3♠ = min, ♠

...and the other is:-
3♣ = min, ♥
3♦ = min, ♠
3♥ = max, ♠
3♠ = max, ♥

The other type of scheme uses 3♣ to show multiple hand types, often a specific range with an unknown suit, with 3♦ sorting it out, thus making the response structure a little more condensed.

[shevek]

In Australia ...

2♦ - 2NT - 3♥/♠ is not allowed.

So 3♣ shows hearts, any strength.

One advantage of this is that responder will declare game in opener's suit, whether weak or strong.
This is quite important.

After 2♦ - 2NT - 3♦

responder bids 3♠ to invite, which opener obviously passes with a minimum, accepts with a maximum.
On hands where responder is interested in game in one major but not the other, p/c response of 2♥/♠ works fine.

So Helene's is always available as natural, forcing if you wish, though could be a GF spade raise, requiring opener to cue a shortage.

[Trick13]

In New Zealand ...

'Unders and Overs' is popular: with a minimum, bid 1-under your suit; with a maximum, bid 1-over. This means partner can play the hand.

3♣ shows the balanced 20-22 hand if that is one of your options (for us, it isn't and we use it to show 5♥).