[UdcaDenny]

My P is learning 2/1 and I assumed his 2♥was fourth suit. What should I bid as E. I was afraid that he could pass 3C or 3D and as I denied 4 cards in H by bidding 2♦my 3♥must ask him for a hold. I didnt want to go past 3NT.

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[phybrr]

 UdcaDenny, on 2016-November-10, 23:14, said:

My P is learning 2/1 and I assumed his 2♥was fourth suit. What should I bid as E. I was afraid that he could pass 3C or 3D and as I denied 4 cards in H by bidding 2♦my 3♥must ask him for a hold. I didnt want to go past 3NT.

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[phybrr]

bid 3d. pass 3nt. If pard bids 4D, bid 4s to shut down at 4nt (not bw)

[nekthen]

It seems to me that 3♥ is consistent with a 5440 hand. So 3♥ is wrong, I would choose 3♦. We are surely now in a game forcing situation

[helene_t]

If 2♥ is 4th suit then it is a game force and you can just bid 3♦.

[msjennifer]

Personally,I would have bid 3D (and NOT 2D) over 2Clubs.Over 2H bid,which must be showing a suit (as responder can still have a 5440 hand),there is a genuine problem as I have club KJ in addition to values which I have described so far. Bidding 3D now is a bad bid since that is what one would bid missing club KJ.

[Cyberyeti]

 msjennifer, on 2016-November-11, 07:58, said:

Personally,I would have bid 3D (and NOT 2D) over 2Clubs.Over 2H bid,which must be showing a suit (as responder can still have a 5440 hand),there is a genuine problem as I have club KJ in addition to values which I have described so far. Bidding 3D now is a bad bid since that is what one would bid missing club KJ.

Agree with 3♦ if playing normal ish methods, but this sort of thing is why a number of players now play an artificial 2♦ over the 2♣ rebid as a sort of "third suit forcing".

[Zelandakh]

 msjennifer, on 2016-November-11, 07:58, said:

Over 2H bid,which must be showing a suit (as responder can still have a 5440 hand),

Can they? If 2♦ is natural then I would personally rebid 2♥ with that shape. It seems to me perfectly logical for Opener's 2♥ to be artificial. Whether it is or not is to a large extent a matter of philosophy - in Europe they are often played as artificial whereas in America natural seems to be popular.

As CY points out, increasingly pairs are playing the 2♦ rebid artificially here as that not only ends up increasing bidding space but also simplifies many auctions. There are various forms of this approach but they basically all work by splitting up different ranges in a similar way to 2-way checkback.

[msjennifer]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-November-11, 10:04, said:

Can they? If 2♦ is natural then I would personally rebid 2♥ with that shape. It seems to me perfectly logical for Opener's 2♥ to be artificial. Whether it is or not is to a large extent a matter of philosophy - in Europe they are often played as artificial whereas in America natural seems to be popular.

As CY points out, increasingly pairs are playing the 2♦ rebid artificially here as that not only ends up increasing bidding space but also simplifies many auctions. There are various forms of this approach but they basically all work by splitting up different ranges in a similar way to 2-way checkback.

one can make. 2 D artificial bid only if one can take the final control of the bidding in ones hand and overrule his partner.It is dangerous with a new or unknown partner.As I was taught the standard bidding the responder always bids up the line and hence in this particular example of bidding 3H over openers 2H will most certainly and naturally show a 5440 hand.

[Caitlynne]

I think your auction up to and including the 2H bid is beyond reproach. I have no idea what 3H was, however.

2H is not an artificial 4th suit forcing bid, however. (I hesitate to make this blanket statement, but I suspect that only responder can make a "4th suit artificial and forcing" bid and that it must be made at responder;s first rebid opportunity.)

The reason 2H is not (AND should not be played as) an artificial 4th suit bid is this: it will be common to need the bid as a natural one in this auction. You did not have sufficient values to make a reverse 2H rebid at your first turn to rebid. So, when partner forces with a new suit bid after you failed to make a narrowly limited rebid - the 2C rebid did not closely limit your hand as it could be made on hands with dead minimum opening values (which might feature honor values of as little as 10 or 11 HCP) as well as on hand with extra values of maybe up to a bad 16 HCP - you naturally now want to take this opportunity to show your heart suit. This bid says you have 4 hearts and not enough values to have made the reverse 2H rebid. It is not stopper showing for, if you had that, you could rebid 2NT to show a stopper in the only unbid suit. Note how highly descriptive this is.

You have a better than minimum hand for your auction through 2H - you might very well bid this same way and hold something like x, KJxx, Jx, AQTxxx - but the auction to that point is sound. What's more, if partner does not sign-off in game, you now plan to show your Hxx support in diamonds if you can conveniently do so at your next turn.

So what in the world was 3H? That is the question you (and your partner) should explore.

My belief is that you should rest in 3NT after this auction:

1C - 1S
2C - 2D
2H - 3C
3D - 3S
3N - P

Since your 2C bid generally promises a six card suit, partner (holding game forcing values) should take the opportunity to show his club values. KJ doubleton of clubs is great support opposite a known six card suit and is likely to solidify your club suit as a source of tricks. It would be criminal of partner not to show those notable club suit values.

You now bid 3D to show your 3 card support. It is most unlikely to be 4 card support for two reasons. First, with 4 card support, you would have raised immediately. Second, you have already shown 10 cards in clubs and hearts, so you cannot have 4 diamonds also - unless you were dealt 14 cards!

Partner should now be thinking NT rather than diamonds, but should be worried that your heart holding may be insufficiently strong for 3NT. 3S shows good spades and asks for your opinion. You bid 3NT with good hearts.

I hope this helps you and your partner.

Best wishes,
Caitlynne

[Kaitlyn S]

 msjennifer, on 2016-November-11, 07:58, said:

Personally,I would have bid 3D (and NOT 2D) over 2Clubs.

For many 2/1 pairs, if a bid is forcing, the jump in the same suit is a splinter. 1C-1S-2C-3D as a splinter is quite useful.

[gordontd]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-November-11, 08:22, said:

Agree with 3♦ if playing normal ish methods, but this sort of thing is why a number of players now play an artificial 2♦ over the 2♣ rebid as a sort of "third suit forcing".

In normalish methods 3D would be a splinter.

[miamijd]

Hi Denny.

I think the main issue is what 2D means here. In what I will call "standard expert" (Bridge World Standard or similar stuff), almost everyone would interpret 2D as an artificial bid. The reason is that you have to have some sort of bid you can make holding 5521 or 5530 with a weakish (not hopeless) hand. Unless you play Reverse Flannery responses over 1m, 2H here needs to show those sorts of hands.

So 2D becomes sort of a "third suit forcing" bid. You might well have a GF or strong invite with 4 or 5 hearts. Partner's 2H thus is natural showing 4H and 6+ clubs. It then seems normal to bid 3NT, although if you want to pattern out and bid 3D, I suppose that's OK, too.

Cheers,
Mike

[PhilG007]

 UdcaDenny, on 2016-November-10, 23:14, said:

My P is learning 2/1 and I assumed his 2♥was fourth suit. What should I bid as E. I was afraid that he could pass 3C or 3D and as I denied 4 cards in H by bidding 2♦my 3♥must ask him for a hold. I didnt want to go past 3NT.

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Looking at the diagram its plain to see that the East/West hands are totally out of synch. East's rebid of 2♦ asked for simple
preference. West's 2♥ bid is.to me,totally pointless. He can show the heart suit by bidding 2NT. As East I would then covert to 3♦
clearly telling partner No Trumps is very risky and demanding a choice between your two suits. West should now pass thus choosing diamonds. When the two hands are clearly misfit,the bidding should stop at the lowest level possible and No Trumps is a contract that will go down among the dead men

[Stephen Tu]

These 3rd suit auctions have *a lot* of different options and can reasonably be played in a number of different ways.

2♦ artificial mainly caters to playing 2♥ NF, which can lead to better scoring partials. But I don't think it's *mandatory* to play it, after all sometimes there is no fit at all and 2♣ was the last making contract, and maybe opener raises a good chunk of 3cd S hands instead of rebidding 2♣. In old fashioned bidding with 5-5 weak responder just passed 2♣ and hoped for the best, and both 2d and 2h were semi-natural and F1. 2♦ artificial makes it hard to show one range of 5-5 GF/inv 5-5 majors; without it you can bid 1c-1s-2c-3h with 5-5 GF and 1c-1s-2c-2h(F1)-?-3h with 5-5 inv. I personally give up showing 5-5 inv if playing 2♦ art. I do prefer 3♥ showing 5-5 GF, because I hate having auctions like 1c-1s-2c-2d!-3c-3h-? and opener doesn't know if responder 5-5 GF or some 5323/5413 type thing and has heart stopper no diamond stopper and still probing for best spot.

If you play 2♦ as art, 2♥ as NF, and 3 red as spl I don't understand how you deal with 5-5 hands.

[aawk]

If you assumed 2h was the 4th suit your bid is 3♦ to show 5-5 and denie a stopper in ♥, bidding 3♥ is showing a 5440 pattern.

[rmnka447]

Assuming 2 ♦ was forcing, opener makes a descriptive bid to further the auction. Here, 2 ♥ shows 4 ♥. Why? Because opener can't bid 2 ♥ directly over 1 ♠ as that would be a reverse. So the mechanism to show 5+ ♣ 4 ♥ minimum unbalanced hand is to bid 2 ♣ limiting the hand and then show ♥.

If a further 3 ♦ is still forcing, then that should be the next bid. It would allow opener to possibly show 3 ♠ if opener's hand were say ♠ xxx ♥ KQJx ♦ x ♣ AQ10xx. If not, I'd probably just bid 3 NT over 2 ♥.

[msjennifer]

I am thoroughly amused and at the same time confused and flabbergasted after reading the various interpretations of various bids made and could have been made in this particular hand.I sincerely thank and congratulate the problem poser.
As one of the old expert(?) remarked that in his days the bidding would have gone 1C-1S-2C-3D-3Nt-4C-5C-pass He was shrewd enough to ask me " can't the opener have xx,AJ10x,K,AQxxxx ?"I could only politely reply that I shall put his view in this forum.Thanks all and warm regards.

[Cyberyeti]

 gordontd, on 2016-November-11, 12:22, said:

In normalish methods 3D would be a splinter.

This may be the case in 2/1 or SA with a short club and WJS, I was thinking in the context of having an inverted raise with 4 card support available and the jump shift to show the GF 5-4 where the hands that splinter are a lot rarer.

[GrahamJson]

As so often when people ask questions about bidding on these forums there are two answers; what is the best bid with an unfamiliar partner and what is the best theoretical sequence.

Any bid that players debate the meaning of is not a good one to use with a strange partner. In this case the 3H bid looks suicidal. Whilst I would not expect it to be passed it is only goiing to lead trumps confusion. I therefore suggest the following practical sequence; 1C-1S-2C-2D-2H-3D-3NT.

As for the best theoretical sequence, this would probably involve a game forcing 2D, the Bourke Relay. The rest of the auction would then proceed according to your agreed methods.