[Winstonm]

When compromise is a requirement, ideas, both best and worst, get watered down. In a sense this is a safeguard, but it also ensures we are required to accept a less than the best agenda.

Education is an area where one could hope to find common ground, total agreement. Alas, our American Taliban will have none of that.

[hrothgar]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 10:27, said:

Of course, since most internet discussion boards are mostly populated with liberals, I was chastised for this suggestion, but not one single poster disputed my depiction of what goes on in a high school classroom.

Have you considered that maybe the problem is with you?

If I had to weigh the probabilities between:

1. Kaitlyn S is surrounded by a vast liberal conspiracy where ever she goes

2. Kaitlyn S is an idiot and posts a lot of really stupid stuff

I'm guessing that #2 is a hell of a lot more likely

(Especially since I have a lot of direct evidence that confirms #2)

[Kaitlyn S]

 hrothgar, on 2016-October-27, 11:03, said:

1. Kaitlyn S is surrounded by a vast liberal conspiracy where ever she goes

Not one of those liberals provided a solution to disruption in the classroom; they only criticized. So here's your chance, make liberals look better in my eyes and be the first liberal to let me hear a potential solution to the problem that teachers can't teach because of discipline problems and they aren't allowed to do anything.

Now, I get criticized a lot because I propose solutions. I'd like to see those that criticize my solutions propose reasons why my solutions are bad, and why their solutions are better. However, for that to happen, my detractors have to actually suggest some solutions. That rarely happens. Your "playbook" tells you that you don't have to provide any solutions because you can get away with keeping the status quo by simply calling those that provide solutions "racist", "stupid", "hateful", or some other derogatory term, and you think it makes you look better because you aren't any of those things but in reality you're not doing anything except attacking people with ideas.

Maybe diana_eve was right. The Water Cooler is a good place to stay away from.

[Kaitlyn S]

I am also curious how Elliana gets to teach is such a rarefied situation where she actually can spend time teaching and not disciplining.

[Winstonm]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 11:16, said:

Not one of those liberals provided a solution to disruption in the classroom; they only criticized. So here's your chance, make liberals look better in my eyes and be the first liberal to let me hear a potential solution to the problem that teachers can't teach because of discipline problems and they aren't allowed to do anything.

Now, I get criticized a lot because I propose solutions. I'd like to see those that criticize my solutions propose reasons why my solutions are bad, and why their solutions are better. However, for that to happen, my detractors have to actually suggest some solutions. That rarely happens. Your "playbook" tells you that you don't have to provide any solutions because you can get away with keeping the status quo by simply calling those that provide solutions "racist", "stupid", "hateful", or some other derogatory term, and you think it makes you look better because you aren't any of those things but in reality you're not doing anything except attacking people with ideas.

Maybe diana_eve was right. The Water Cooler is a good place to stay away from.

It's actually a fairly simple solution, impossible for us, as a nation, to perform. We have to eliminate poverty and elevate the lower-middle class while raising the benefits of education to a level that makes education more attractive to youth than crime. This means making people other than ourselves our priority - it will never happen.

[mike777]

I hear the term "common core" all the time in the news but not I dont know exactly what it is or how it works to answer Ken's questions. I note posters have not really explained how it works.

I do know that education is one field that does not give equal pay for equal work. For example many schools differ pay based on acquired education levels or seniority not equal pay for equal work. There is strong resistance by many forces to "creative destruction" the process that would allow a local school/college to be destroyed and replaced by something or ten somethings. To be fair this process would be painful to the local community but it is even more painful/harmful in allowing failed/failing schools to survive.

[Kaitlyn S]

 Winstonm, on 2016-October-27, 12:13, said:

It's actually a fairly simple solution, impossible for us, as a nation, to perform. We have to eliminate poverty and elevate the lower-middle class while raising the benefits of education to a level that makes education more attractive to youth than crime. This means making people other than ourselves our priority - it will never happen.

This may shock you, but I somewhat agree. Universal Basic Income has been discussed elsewhere and I can see the merits of it, especially when you consider that menial jobs will be automated in most of our lifetimes.

However, it will take a generation or two to fix this (perhaps longer because fellow conservatives are going to fight tooth and nail against free stuff, despite the fact that I don't see an alternative), meanwhile children aren't going to start behaving overnight, and culture is hard to change. So let's assume that we don't want to lose the next generation to a poor education due to behavioral issues in the classroom, please take a shot at providing a solution.

Note to any conservatives reading this: I have not given up my conservative ideals, but at some point, we have to be practical. That is why I would give positive rep to almost all of barmar's posts - his ideas strike me as being very practical.

[hrothgar]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 11:16, said:

Not one of those liberals provided a solution to disruption in the classroom; they only criticized. So here's your chance, make liberals look better in my eyes and be the first liberal to let me hear a potential solution to the problem that teachers can't teach because of discipline problems and they aren't allowed to do anything.

Now, I get criticized a lot because I propose solutions. I'd like to see those that criticize my solutions propose reasons why my solutions are bad, and why their solutions are better. However, for that to happen, my detractors have to actually suggest some solutions. That rarely happens. Your "playbook" tells you that you don't have to provide any solutions because you can get away with keeping the status quo by simply calling those that provide solutions "racist", "stupid", "hateful", or some other derogatory term, and you think it makes you look better because you aren't any of those things but in reality you're not doing anything except attacking people with ideas.

I reject the terms of your argument.

My proposition is supported by the quality of the arguments that you have chosen to make and their factual basis of of your posts.
You get judged by the worst of what you offer not an arbitrary example chosen by you.
You get criticized, not because you offer "solutions", rather because your intellectual foundations are wanting.

In much the same manner, I do not have a responsibility to make liberals or to use the vocabulary that you seem to be more familiar with, to make "libtards" look better in your eyes.
I not looking for your respect. My sense of self worth is not contingent on your validation.

[Kaitlyn S]

 mike777, on 2016-October-27, 13:17, said:

I hear the term "common core" all the time in the news but not I dont know exactly what it is or how it works to answer Ken's questions. I note posters have not really explained how it works.

I do know that education is one field that does not give equal pay for equal work. For example many schools differ pay based on acquired education levels or seniority not equal pay for equal work. There is strong resistance by many forces to "creative destruction" the process that would allow a local school/college to be destroyed and replaced by something or ten somethings. To be fair this process would be painful to the local community but it is even more painful/harmful in allowing failed/failing schools to survive.

I have heard only the negative implications. I'd be interested in hearing rational arguments from someone in favor of it.

[PassedOut]

 mike777, on 2016-October-27, 13:17, said:

I hear the term "common core" all the time in the news but not I dont know exactly what it is or how it works to answer Ken's questions. I note posters have not really explained how it works.

Preparing America's students for success.

[billw55]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 11:16, said:

Maybe diana_eve was right. The Water Cooler is a good place to stay away from.

Don't get discouraged. I applaud your ability to remain on topic and civil. Some posters here veer easily into personal attacks, and hrothgar is usually at the front of the line. I don't pay him too much mind when he gets that way.

[mike777]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 13:36, said:

I have heard only the negative implications. I'd be interested in hearing rational arguments from someone in favor of it.

In favor of what, equal pay for equal work?

I suppose one big issue is what is our standard of measurement?

[billw55]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 11:19, said:

I am also curious how Elliana gets to teach is such a rarefied situation where she actually can spend time teaching and not disciplining.

Private schools, wealthier public school districts, and advanced courses all present such an environment. Or maybe she is just really good at it. Anyway it is not as rare as you think.

[mike777]

 PassedOut, on 2016-October-27, 13:36, said:

Preparing America's students for success.

thanks but frustrating. Your link sent to a page which sent me another link for my state standards. That link does not work....geez....

In any case I guess one big disagreement is that as a practical matter it forces teachers to teach to your local state standards, whatever they are. I am guessing standards can be different from state to state. Not sure why this is such a big deal...if you dont like your state standards, change them. my guess is 90-99% of us here have no idea what the standards are.

[PassedOut]

 mike777, on 2016-October-27, 14:00, said:

thanks but frustrating. Your link sent to a page which sent me another link for my state standards. That link does not work....geez....

Not sure why -- I tested it again and it still works for me. But here is the url to cut and paste: http://www.corestandards.org/

[akwoo]

If we had classrooms with 15 students instead of 30, just about all these problems would go away, and the ones that remain will be a problem for much fewer people.

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 10:27, said:

What seems interesting to me is that we are discussing teaching children as if it is a given that you will be able to spend your time teaching.

I have several friends and acquaintances that are teachers and every single one of them tells me that the teacher has to spend more time on discipline problems than actually teaching; they are not allowed to do anything about a disruptive child that will cause him not to be disruptive (they are allowed to yell at him but anything else would be grounds for disciplinary action against the teacher and/or a lawsuit from the parents), and yelling rarely does any good, and the disruptive children simply ignore requests for time-out or to go to the principal's office; and there are usually multiple disruptive children per class not just one.

Teachers who have taught college level courses where the child or his parents are paying for it actually get to teach. Their experience is that they must teach the material that should have been taught in high school but nobody got to learn anything in high school because of all the disruption from misbehaving students.

In another discussion board, I suggested that a solution was to segregate based on behavior so that the 80% or so of children that want to behave and learn will all be in the same schools and the students will learn. Of course, since most internet discussion boards are mostly populated with liberals, I was chastised for this suggestion, but not one single poster disputed my depiction of what goes on in a high school classroom.

[Winstonm]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-27, 13:26, said:

However, it will take a generation or two to fix this (perhaps longer because fellow conservatives are going to fight tooth and nail against free stuff, despite the fact that I don't see an alternative), meanwhile children aren't going to start behaving overnight, and culture is hard to change. So let's assume that we don't want to lose the next generation to a poor education due to behavioral issues in the classroom, please take a shot at providing a solution.

I can't help you because I don't believe in simple magical solutions to complex human problems. We did not go from position A to our current Z overnight; why should we assume there is a quick or easy way to undo the damage of the past 50 years?

We may not see the change within our lifetimes; however, it is up to us to place the country on the right path for success, with or without us as witnesses.

[billw55]

 akwoo, on 2016-October-27, 14:21, said:

If we had classrooms with 15 students instead of 30, just about all these problems would go away, and the ones that remain will be a problem for much fewer people.

While reducing class size certainly has benefits, it will not magically solve behavior and discipline problems. The unfortunate reality is that there is a nontrivial portion of kids who just won't act properly.

[mike777]

 billw55, on 2016-October-27, 14:54, said:

While reducing class size certainly has benefits, it will not magically solve behavior and discipline problems. The unfortunate reality is that there is a nontrivial portion of kids who just won't act properly.

13% of all students are receiving special education for disability problems in one form or another. Not sure if this number is growing over time.

http://nces.ed.gov/p...CES&center=NCES

[Vampyr]

 PassedOut, on 2016-October-27, 08:17, said:

And you can count me with those who feel that teaching kids creationism instead of science is a form of child abuse.

One of the problems with home-schooling is that, at least in the US, the majority of the children are taught this and other variants of magical thinking.