[Jinksy]

What's the worst hand you can construct that you think should open 2♠? Would it be any different (besides suit arrangement) for a weak 2♥/♦?

[wank]

Jinksy, on 2016-October-05, 14:45, said:

What's the worst hand you can construct that you think should open 2♠? Would it be any different (besides suit arrangement) for a weak 2♥/♦?

kqt9xx and out if balish

[Phil]

wank, on 2016-October-05, 16:01, said:

kqt9xx and out if balish

If balish means I have shortness (preferably 6421) then yes.

Preempts show length. They should have offense. They shouldn't have defense. 2nd seat is no exception.

[Kaitlyn S]

Matchpoints or IMPs? State of the match? Are the opponents also vulnerable?

[wank]

Phil, on 2016-October-05, 16:12, said:

If balish means I have shortness (preferably 6421) then yes.

Preempts show length. They should have offense. They shouldn't have defense. 2nd seat is no exception.

i meant something like kqt9xx xx xxx xx as in relatively balanced.

if i had extra shape, e.g. 6421 i would accept a weaker suit.

[billw55]

wank, on 2016-October-05, 16:16, said:

i meant something like kqt9xx xx xxx xx as in relatively balanced.

if i had extra shape, e.g. 6421 i would accept a weaker suit.

Yeah, I might go as low as KJT9xx x xxxx xx. Maybe I would want the 8. It's close, this is about my limit. KQ98xx same story.

grumpy nitpick: I wish you would capitalize honor cards.

[Jinksy]

Next question - how do you view points outside the trump suit? As a net positive or negative, and how much so?

Eg on the cusp would you prefer a 'pure' hand, such as KQ987x xxx xx xx, or a hand with some outside values to get it 'up to strength', such as KQ987x xxx Kx xx? If the opened suit is substantially too weak, would you open anyway with decent outside values, and does it depend on the nature of the values? Eg
QJTxxx Axx xx xx
QJ98xx KJx Qx Jx

[wank]

aces and kings outside are good. queen and jacks aren't (unless in a side 4 card suit).

[lamford]

billw55, on 2016-October-06, 06:50, said:

grumpy nitpick: I wish you would capitalize honor cards.

Wank does not have a shift key on his keyboard which is why he does not capitalise the first letter of a sentence either nor the pronoun "I". But aces, kings, queens and jacks, should not be capitalized according to most publishing house styles. And deuces and treys have gone their own ways ... And KQJxxx and out for me. There they do need caps.

[Phil]

wank, on 2016-October-06, 07:29, said:

aces and kings outside are good. queen and jacks aren't (unless in a side 4 card suit).

The 'perfect' preempt looks like KQJT98, so I'm not going to agree with 'aces are good'.

However, I would rather have one Ace than two queens for a preempt.

[wank]

Phil, on 2016-October-06, 08:00, said:

The 'perfect' preempt looks like KQJT98, so I'm not going to agree with 'aces are good'.

However, I would rather have one Ace than two queens for a preempt.

yes i'd rather have the hcp in my suit but for example qjtxxx xx xxx xx i wouldn't open but qjtxxx xx axx xx i would. i wouldn't open (by a large margin) qjtxxx xx qxx qx which is the same 7 hcp.

[mycroft]

Aces and Kings outside are bad - partner won't know what to do later. One is good. Queens and jacks are waste paper, but also mean the opponents don't think they're as strong as they are, so they're more likely to leave it in and go for the plus - so they're actually a minus.

And for me KQ97xx or QJT9xx and a card seems right, one more notch in suit quality at strictly unfavourable.

[Jinksy]

wank, on 2016-October-06, 07:29, said:

aces and kings outside are good. queen and jacks aren't (unless in a side 4 card suit).

Would you consider queens and jacks reasons *against* opening an otherwise marginal hand, or just neutral?

[Kaitlyn S]

mycroft, on 2016-October-06, 11:41, said:

Queens and jacks are waste paper, but also mean the opponents don't think they're as strong as they are, so they're more likely to leave it in and go for the plus - so they're actually a minus.

On the other hand, a side queen is more likely to take a trick on defense once you've preempted, especially a doubleton queen.

[rmnka447]

A good solid suit if you have nothing outside --- KQJ10xx, AKJxxx, AQJxxx, etc.

A decent suit with a good additional value -- KQ10xxx, KJ10xxx with an A or guarded K.

Basically, a good "disciplined" 1st seat weak 2 is enough.

I learned many, many years ago that AQJxxx and out is enough even VUL. Partner showed up with a 20+ point max 1 bid. We missed a laydown slam in my suit because I couldn't convince partner that my suit was good enough without the 2nd seat weak 2.