[Phil]

Played against two pretty strong opponents last night and felt like we were a little spewy at times. Both situations we are NV and it's IMPS.

Hand 1

Opener KTx KJxxxx x AKJ
Resp Q7xxx Q xxxx Qxx

1H* 2C**
4S

* generally 14+ unless opener has side spades, then it's 10+

** 5+ spades, 3-9 points

Hand 2

Opener Ax KQ9xx KQxx 8x
Resp Qxx Axx xx QJ9xx

Pass 1H
2D* 4H

* 3 card constructive raise or better (cannot be too good as a passed hand obviously)

ATB if any

[ggwhiz]

Your methods give you a lot of extra room for specific game tries of your choice yet in these 2 opener just threw that room away to blast and pray.

I don't see any harmful information leak and it's overrated against good opponents anyway.

[Kaitlyn S]

My regular partnership (which played Flannery and 1H-1S showing 5) would bid this hand 1H-1S-3S-P. Responder's hand is not unexpected and has no wastage in diamonds, and your responder could be a couple points weaker than ours. Responder is blameless as he has all his calls.

The second hand depends on whether you have game tries that can find the duplication. This hand is a disaster for LTC - opener has 5 losers (5.5 adjusted) and responder has 8 losers (8.5 adjusted) so game is indicated even counting the adjustments. My first impression is that 4H is bad luck but I would have expected you to have company. Only you know if your system is sophisticated enough to discover the duplication. Mine isn't - my single raise shows only 3 trump and we have help-suit and short-suit game tries available and still I can't come up with a sensible auction to avoid game (KQxx is too much for a HSGT for us.) Well, I can, but it's 1H P (guess to only bid 2H) P (guess to pass.) My guess is that a lot of good pairs would get to 4H on these cards and if the other table didn't, chalk it up to bad luck.

[Phil]

In the first, we can make a quantitative game try but that's about it.

On the 2nd, opener might have stalled with 2N which shows a 5 loser hand without reference to location. Responder looking at one prime cover card and one of the black queens surely working would bid game I think.

[ggwhiz]

 Phil, on 2016-October-05, 10:47, said:

In the first, we can make a quantitative game try but that's about it.

On the 2nd, opener might have stalled with 2N which shows a 5 loser hand without reference to location. Responder looking at one prime cover card and one of the black queens surely working would bid game I think.

You've gained the room to do better than that. Along with help suit, we use 2nt to ask responder to bid up the line suits that they would accept a hsgt on controls. Works (maybe) on #2 but I doubt it is the best use, just comfortable (and rare) for us.

No good answer to #1 on my card but if you are going to bid like this to gain flexibility ya gotta try something that takes advantage of it at least some of the time.

[Phil]

Yes, some sort of Kokish up the line accept seems useful.

Edit and that's essentially what happens after 1M 2M-1. After the loser count is described, responder shows secondor values.

[FrancesHinden]

The first one opener just overbid. He had an aceless minimum (assuming 'side spades' means 4+ spades) and bid game over 2C. given that 3S is a long way short of cold, and responder has exactly what he has shown, 4S is a massive overbid. It would be nice to make some sort of constructive game try at a low level, but even without that 3S is a better bid than 4S and 2S is hardly unreasonable NV.

The second one is harder. The simple answer is to say you were 24-high with an 8-card fit, but it still seems that opener just bid game when perhaps a game try would have been a better idea. If opener has shown 14+ then responder will bid game when it's right.

[Phil]

Should have mentioned on 2 that 1H essentially shows the same strength as the 1H opening on 1 if that's not clear.

So in some sense, opener on 2 isn't a minimum per se.

[Jinksy]

Would a 2♠ rebid on B1 promise 3 card support? If so, that's all the hand looks worth to me. As soon as P fails to raise hearts, the hand starts to look worse.

On B2, what's the range for a constructive raise?

[Phil]

 Jinksy, on 2016-October-07, 05:12, said:

Would a 2♠ rebid on B1 promise 3 card support? If so, that's all the hand looks worth to me. As soon as P fails to raise hearts, the hand starts to look worse.

On B2, what's the range for a constructive raise?

1. No, it could be a doubleton on 2524 for instance.

2. A really good 7 with two definite cover cards - trump king and a side ace. Trump Q perhaps. There is no upper limit - although responder has the option of starting a GF relay if it suits him.

[Jinksy]

 Phil, on 2016-October-07, 07:58, said:

1. No, it could be a doubleton on 2524 for instance.

This feels like it puts pressure on a lot of opener's hands. What do you gain in exchange?

Quote

2. A really good 7 with two definite cover cards - trump king and a side ace. Trump Q perhaps. There is no upper limit - although responder has the option of starting a GF relay if it suits him.

North feels too soft to drive to game opposite that for me. Assuming you play naturalish continuations, a 3♦ game try seems to suit the hand pretty well. I keep underbidding in constructive auctions, though.

[jogs]

 Phil, on 2016-October-05, 09:13, said:

Played against two pretty strong opponents last night and felt like we were a little spewy at times. Both situations we are NV and it's IMPS.

Hand 2

Opener Ax KQ9xx KQxx 8x
Resp Qxx Axx xx QJ9xx

Pass 1H
2D* 4H

* 3 card constructive raise or better (cannot be too good as a passed hand obviously)

ATB if any

That's not a constructive raise in my book. Points/schmoints. It isn't just the quantity of points. It is also the quality of the points. Queens and jacks in side suits are of unknown value. Those queens and jack probably netted you no tricks on this board.
NV or imps, does it matter? Doesn't it still require 10 tricks for a major suit game?

pass - 1♥
2♣

2♣ natural would be an overbid. But at least opener 'knows' the partnership hands don't fit.

[rmnka447]

Hand #1 - If as indicated 2 ♣ shows 5+ ♠ and 3-9 points, opener has nowhere near a jump to game hand. Despite the 16 HCP and stiff, it's still a 6 loser which would put it in the invitational range of hands. If responder has the bottom end of the response's range, then responder might be looking at a 10 loser hand and even 2 ♠ might be iffy. OTOH, when responder has a nice at or near top of response range hand, you want to be in game. So clearly an invite is right.

At IMPs, bidding or not bidding NV games is about a wash. If you bid game undoubled and it goes down versus the opponents settling for a part score, you're loss is about -190 (i.e. -50-140). If you bid game and it makes while the opponents settle for a part score, you gain about +250 (i.e. +420-170). So the swing either way is about 6-7 IMPS. So while you don't want to be especially timid, you needn't be super aggressive either. Just use your best judgment and accept the result.

So, I would give opener a charge for the jump to game.

Hand #2 - This hand is a little tougher. Opener does have a 14 HCP basic 5 loser hand. Mel Colchamiro found though that with 5-4 hands, the 5-6-7 LTC mantra (5 loser -> bid game, 6 loser -> invite, 7 loser -> pass) doesn't work very well. At least, that's the feedback he got from his students. So here again with a 14 point hand with only 4 controls, you might want to invite versus jump to game. Indeed, some players who adjust LTC for the honors held would treat the two KQxx(x) suits as more like 1 1/4 losers each making the hand a 5 1/2 loser and in an invitational range.

If 3 ♦ would be a natural or help suit game, that would seem to work well on this hand. With the bulk of responder's points in suits that opener is likely short in and being quacks, bidding 3 ♥ would seem right.

So I'm giving opener a second charge for jumping to game on this hand also.

[mcphee]

First one strikes me like a possible range issue. Facing say Jxxxx in S and Qxxx in C 2S may prove a rocky road. The right hand might make game playable, but even an invite could prove fatal. Do you respond with those holding a stiff H? In any case should re-sponder be better I feel game is a small target NV.

Second is tempting, but I'd be far more comfortable facing a 3 card limit. Is an A and K good enough for a constructive raise? For me, A, K and side Q makes a 3 card limit, and A, K is sound enough for constructive. Not a sort who places much on Q's.

Vul you need to play hitch and hesitate.

[helene_t]

IMHO:
The first one, opener should have made some kind of game try but you might end up in game anyway. The club duplication may not be diagnosed.

The second one, opener overbid. If a 2♥ rebid shows a 3rd seat junk opening then he has to make some kind of game try to show a genuine but minimum opening. Then responder signs off.