[shyams]

---

Vanilla 2/1 question:
....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Now let's make the heart suit weaker, say

---

....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Finally, does the scoring matter? i.e. does your option change for IMPs vs MPs?

Apologies if the question is too mundane. I'm asking because I thought it was interesting.... {and I obviously chose wrong }

[mr1303]

Basically, if I want to force to game opposite a 2344 10-11 count, I bid 646. If not, I bid 664.

Hand 1 would be a 646 hand, hand 2 a 664 hand.

[kiwinacol]

Hello. The second heart suit is poor so I'll bid 2S even though it only describes a 6+ suit. In the first example the hearts are worth showing and responder is slightly better off as only 4 opening cards are unknown.<br style="font-size: 9pt;">

shyams, on 2016-July-26, 01:47, said:

---

Vanilla 2/1 question:
....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Now let's make the heart suit weaker, say

---

....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Finally, does the scoring matter? i.e. does your option change for IMPs vs MPs?

Apologies if the question is too mundane. I'm asking because I thought it was interesting.... {and I obviously chose wrong }

[MrAce]

I bid 2♥ by both hands. On hand 2, I take the risk of playing a 4-3 fit instead of good 6-1 fit ( with 1-2 pd should correct 2♥ to 2♠ or bid his 6-7 card suit)

Scoring matters. At MP finding the game is not the priority. I would bid 2♠ with hand 2 at MP.

[kenberg]

mr1303, on 2016-July-26, 01:54, said:

Basically, if I want to force to game opposite a 2344 10-11 count, I bid 646. If not, I bid 664.

Hand 1 would be a 646 hand, hand 2 a 664 hand.

Yes.

If the hand is to be played at they 2 level, playing it in spades should be fine, either hand. But after 1S-1NT-2H partner might well bid 2NT and I have to be prepared for that. We are not playing this hand in NT, so I will be bidding 3S. If I do not want to do this, I should have started by rebidding my spades. It shows my weakness, it shows six spades, and it leaves open the option of a non-forcing 3H if partner tries 2NT over 2S. And a 2NT rebid is less likely over my 2S than it is over a less limited call of 2H. In NT they can knock out the diamond ace on the opening lead and hold up on the spade ace, making the S hand worthless. We are not playing this in NT unless partner really insists.

I know you effectively said this already. I'm just agreeing. And yes, hand 1 is worth the gamble so 2H, while on hand 2 I rebid 2S.

[mike777]

shyams, on 2016-July-26, 01:47, said:

---

Vanilla 2/1 question:
....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Now let's make the heart suit weaker, say

---

....What is your preferred rebid? 2♥? 2♠? 3♠? Or something else?

Finally, does the scoring matter? i.e. does your option change for IMPs vs MPs?

Apologies if the question is too mundane. I'm asking because I thought it was interesting.... {and I obviously chose wrong }

1) rebid 2h
2) a bit offbeat and conservative but if allowed I would open 2s in first seat. Of course partner needs to know I could have this hand type. That would allow 1s=1nt=2s to be a bit stronger.

[GrahamJson]

Rebidding 2S only works best if responder has 13 in the majors and decides to pass a 2H rebid. So it is 2H for me, which describes four cards in my hand in addition to the five spades that I have already shown whereas a 2S rebid only shows one extra card.

Of course if you bid 2H on hands like this partner should be prepared to give false preference to 2S if he holds 23 in the majors. A 2S bid by him does not show that he prefers spades to hearts but rather he prefers a 2S contract on a 52 fit to a 2H contract on a 43 fit. The same applies in other sequences when opener rebids his second suit.

Note that nowadays many play some sort of convention after a 1S-1NT sequence. For example 2D can be a transfer to hearts. This would be ideal in this case as you could transfer and then bid 2S showing your 64 shape.

[Zelandakh]

GrahamJson, on 2016-July-27, 02:59, said:

Note that nowadays many play some sort of convention after a 1S-1NT sequence. For example 2D can be a transfer to hearts. This would be ideal in this case as you could transfer and then bid 2S showing your 64 shape.

It is only ideal if this sequence shows the 64 shape and a minimum. I think the majority that play transfer rebids would show extras with this sequence, which means that the issue has not really been circumvented.

[msjennifer]

2S.

[The_Badger]

hi Shyams,

There are two principles here vying for each other: always rebid a good suit, and, always bid the second suit in your hand.
Its easier with ♠KQJT62 ♥T972 ♦A ♣ J3 to rebid 2♠ as the ♥ suit is weak. But there again, you could miss out on a ♥ fit. But I'm less worried that game will be missed.

With ♠KQJT62 ♥QT97 ♦A ♣J3, I am always rebidding 2♥. True, we can miss game with the wide-ranging 1NT response, but you have to show that second suit I feel. Although the hand is structurally strong, and could well generate 7-8 tricks on its own in a ♠ contract, it is a tad short of quick tricks to rebid 3♠. Kaplan and Rubens put it at 15.50. The trouble is that responder doesn't need much for game to be made, so you could be left in 2♥ or a 2♠ preference bid.

The forcing 1NT response is the cornerstone of the 2/1 system, and perhaps has been adopted from the original Precision system that also uses 5 card majors. However, on a personal note, I do find it is 'clumsy' on quite a few shapely hands such as these because the Precision point ranges and bids are much tighter than 2/1.

[Caitlynne]

The issue is really whether you have extra in the first hand or not.

With the weaker hand, you rebid 2S and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you can now bid 3H. This allows partner to pass or retreat to 3S.

With the stronger hand, you rebid 2H and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you now bid 3S. Since partner must increase the level to take a preference back to hearts, this shows a better hand than in the sequence above. Both show 6 spades and 4 hearts.

[neilkaz]

Caitlynne, on 2016-July-27, 12:04, said:

The issue is really whether you have extra in the first hand or not.

With the weaker hand, you rebid 2S and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you can now bid 3H. This allows partner to pass or retreat to 3S.

With the stronger hand, you rebid 2H and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you now bid 3S. Since partner must increase the level to take a preference back to hearts, this shows a better hand than in the sequence above. Both show 6 spades and 4 hearts.

This I agree with.

[MrAce]

Caitlynne, on 2016-July-27, 12:04, said:

The issue is really whether you have extra in the first hand or not.

With the weaker hand, you rebid 2S and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you can now bid 3H. This allows partner to pass or retreat to 3S.

With the stronger hand, you rebid 2H and, if partner bids again - e.g., with 2NT - you now bid 3S. Since partner must increase the level to take a preference back to hearts, this shows a better hand than in the sequence above. Both show 6 spades and 4 hearts.

Now I am trying to be calm but....Why on earth some people in this topic are putting all their eggs in the basket of "IF PD BIDS 2 NT" ?

What is pd supposed to bid over 2♠ with

xx
Kxxxxx
Qxx
Kx I am giving wasted ♦Q


What is pd supposed to bid over 2♠ with

x
Kxxxx
Jxxxx
Ax

OR vs hand #2 with

Ax
Jxxxxx
Kxx
xx

again I am giving a wasted ♦K

Pd bidding 2 NT should be your LAST concern, if it is a concern at all!

[alinem]

I would bid 4c gerber

[SimonFa]

mr1303, on 2016-July-26, 01:54, said:

Basically, if I want to force to game opposite a 2344 10-11 count, I bid 646. If not, I bid 664.

Hand 1 would be a 646 hand, hand 2 a 664 hand.

Is it possible to make a forcing bid in this situation? AIUI partner can pass 2H, 2S and 3S?

[helene_t]

SimonFa, on 2016-August-02, 06:17, said:

Is it possible to make a forcing bid in this situation? AIUI partner can pass 2H, 2S and 3S?

I think it is concensus here on this forum that
1♠-1NT
2♥-2NT
3♠
is forcing.

If you systematically rebid spades first with 6-4 an minimum then presumably
1♠-1NT
2♠-2NT
3♥
is nonforcing.

However, Justin Lall has a good solution to the forcing-or-not dilemma for opener's third bid:
https://justinlall.c...ood-convention/

[mcphee]

IMO it is silly to not show H and is making a decision that is just not yours to make. As responder I do not pass a 2H rebid when I have 2S and 3H and a minimum hand. Some days the 2H rebid is 5-4-3-1. You may even lose control when H are 3/3 after they tap you. What if partner bids 2N you say? There is a great little convention well worth knowing for partnerships called Mittleman Adjunct.

[Phil]

With 64 it's generally a good idea to always show hearts, but showing a side minor is a lower priority and I prefer that 2m be used to differentiate between a good hand (646) and a minimum (664).

[SimonFa]

helene_t, on 2016-August-02, 06:34, said:

I think it is concensus here on this forum that
1♠-1NT
2♥-2NT
3♠
is forcing.

If you systematically rebid spades first with 6-4 an minimum then presumably
1♠-1NT
2♠-2NT
3♥
is nonforcing.

However, Justin Lall has a good solution to the forcing-or-not dilemma for opener's third bid:
https://justinlall.c...ood-convention/

Thanks for the link, Helen. I had forgotten that and it makes sense.

However in this context I was questioning whether a forcing bid could be made after 1♠ (p) 1NT) P ? which is how I read the original comment.

[rmnka447]

With hand #2, I'd surely bid 2 ♠.

Hand #1 is a tougher call. Usually when I have some uncertainty, I'll refer to LTC and see what that tells me. Holdings such as ♥ QJxx or the actual ♥ Q109x are normally treated as 2 loser holdings. So hand #1 ends up being a solid 5 loser hand for me. I think that's enough to tip the hand in favor of bidding 2 ♥. Were the ♥ holding something like ♥ Q432, the holding is less certain as 2 loser holding more like a 2 1/2 loser holding. With such a hand, I'd take the more conservative action of bidding 2 ♠.