[Phil]

(1♠) - double - (4♠) - 4N
(pass) - 5♦ - (pass) - 5♥(?)

See poll. Thanks.

[Fluffy]

Lol I missed the point completelly, this can either be hearts and clubs or just hearts weak.

[wank]

combo 1 and 3 ideally

[kenrexford]

What it means and what it should mean are two different questions.

FWIW, I think our world is easier if 4NT is a relay to 5C, a sort of good bad. That way, 5C and 5D can each be that minor and hearts. 5H direct as slam try.

[rhm]

Fluffy, on 2015-November-03, 13:29, said:

Lol I missed the point completelly, this can either be hearts and clubs or just hearts weak.

wank, on 2015-November-03, 14:27, said:

combo 1 and 3 ideally

What is poor partner supposed to do with that sort of combo information, say with no hearts but some clubs?
Look to the ceiling for inspiration?

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

With no hearts I suppose he would not double. With a strong one-suiter he wouldn't just bid 5D but jump to slam, no?

Doesn't 5D promise that doubler prefers both hearts and diamonds to clubs?

[rhm]

gwnn, on 2015-November-04, 03:33, said:

With no hearts I suppose he would not double. With a strong one-suiter he wouldn't just bid 5D but jump to slam, no?

Doesn't 5D promise that doubler prefers both hearts and diamonds to clubs?

You are right. I overlooked the initial DBL

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

rhm, on 2015-November-04, 04:32, said:

You are right. I overlooked the initial DBL

Rainer Herrmann

Initial double is "meaningless", 4NT shows 2 places to play, so partner wouln't bid 5♦ with 4153.

[rhm]

Fluffy, on 2015-November-03, 13:29, said:

Lol I missed the point completelly, this can either be hearts and clubs or just hearts weak.

Fluffy, on 2015-November-04, 04:52, said:

Initial double is "meaningless", 4NT shows 2 places to play, so partner wouln't bid 5♦ with 4153.

These 2 statements contradict each other, don't they?

Rainer Herrmann

[lycier]

It is a logic bidding for 5♥ to show ♥ and ♣ after 4N over 4♠.

[Fluffy]

rhm, on 2015-November-04, 05:15, said:

These 2 statements contradict each other, don't they?

Rainer Herrmann

No, they don't one refers to a bidding with double, the other without double and even if they were about the same they would still add since 4NT is 2 places to play. Exceptionally it can contain a heart non invitational hand if you have agreed that way with your partner.

[gszes]

H/C OR weak hearts 1 suiter (a real hobson's choice). I wanted to thrown in an entire system for handling these but none was asked for sooooooooooooo

[Zelandakh]

We have had this come up very often on BBF. It is better to play the direct 5♥ as the slam try in hearts and 4NT followed by 5♥ as weaker because partner does not need to know whether we have clubs in the weak case. It is also possible to adapt Ken's (1♠) - (2♠) system to this situation (so 5m would show the minor + hearts and 4NT is a single-suiter) but there does not appear to be any clear advantage in doing so.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-09, 06:22, said:

We have had this come up very often on BBF. It is better to play the direct 5♥ as the slam try in hearts and 4NT followed by 5♥ as weaker because partner does not need to know whether we have clubs in the weak case. It is also possible to adapt Ken's (1♠) - (2♠) system to this situation (so 5m would show the minor + hearts and 4NT is a single-suiter) but there does not appear to be any clear advantage in doing so.

Same advantage, the situation where Advancer prefers hearts over the other minor but prefers the otherminor over the wrong minor. Give Advancer 4 hearts. If he has 3-2 in the minors but longer in the right minor, he picks the 53 rather than the 54. Same if 22 or 33 in the minors and picks unfortunately.

A secondary benefit is a strong Advancer with, say, Ax or Kx in one known suit, 5 card in the other, where he can visialize slam. Harder to have the right hand opposite a one suiter.

[Zelandakh]

Yes but that is offset by having to double with both minors and not having a 4NT advance available to sort it out, since that is required to show heart preference. Since double occurs much more frequently, interfering with those auctions seems to be a serious flaw and one that is more difficult to deal with at the 5 level than over 2♠. But if you have some practical experience of comparing the methods, that would be good evidence that the flaw is perhaps not so important.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-09, 07:46, said:

Yes but that is offset by having to double with both minors and not having a 4NT advance available to sort it out, since that is required to show heart preference. Since double occurs much more frequently, interfering with those auctions seems to be a serious flaw and one that is more difficult to deal with at the 5 level than over 2♠. But if you have some practical experience of comparing the methods, that would be good evidence that the flaw is perhaps not so important.

You don't make a lot of money doubling 1x4 sequences as penalty, i think.

[Zelandakh]

kenrexford, on 2015-November-09, 19:33, said:

You don't make a lot of money doubling 1x4 sequences as penalty, i think.

Not sure I follow this. It is slightly easier to pass the double for penalty when you are confident it does not include the minor 2-suiter but that was not the case I was referring to.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-10, 03:21, said:

Not sure I follow this. It is slightly easier to pass the double for penalty when you are confident it does not include the minor 2-suiter but that was not the case I was referring to.

An alternative, if you are troubled, is for 5H direct to show hearts and clubs, 5C minors, 5D reds. You lose the hearts only slam try, but you gain definition on the three legitimate slam hands.