[dboxley]

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Playing XYZ, and assuming the 1NT rebid instead of raise,how should the auction continue?

[mgoetze]

2♣-2♦-2♠-4♠

[neilkaz]

mgoetze, on 2015-April-28, 18:36, said:

2♣-2♦-2♠-4♠

Yes, 2♠ invite and I also accept with South's nice 13 hcp hand.

[dboxley]

mgoetze, on 2015-April-28, 18:36, said:

2♣-2♦-2♠-4♠

Does this mean that opener will automatically correct to 2/3NT with a doubleton spade? And is there any good reason why opener can't refuse the relay and bid 2S since the worst that can happen is a 43 fit rather than 2D? I am just trying to wrap my mind around XYZ and I see this as a real problem.

[mgoetze]

neilkaz, on 2015-April-28, 18:40, said:

Yes, 2♠ invite and I also accept with South's nice 13 hcp hand.

I wouldn't by the way, but that's just because North is a clear opening hand for me.

[mgoetze]

dboxley, on 2015-April-28, 18:45, said:

Does this mean that opener will automatically correct to 2/3NT with a doubleton spade?

Not necessarily, 5-2 fits tend to play reasonably well.

Quote

And is there any good reason why opener can't refuse the relay and bid 2S since the worst that can happen is a 43 fit rather than 2D? I am just trying to wrap my mind around XYZ and I see this as a real problem.

Assume for a moment that partner is not an idiot. What's wrong with playing 2♦ if partner does indeed bid 2♣ and then passes 2♦?

[akwoo]

dboxley, on 2015-April-28, 18:45, said:

Does this mean that opener will automatically correct to 2/3NT with a doubleton spade? And is there any good reason why opener can't refuse the relay and bid 2S since the worst that can happen is a 43 fit rather than 2D? I am just trying to wrap my mind around XYZ and I see this as a real problem.

1) Opener automatically corrects to 3N with an acceptance of the invite and a doubleton spade. If opener wants to decline the invite, pass is a possibility even with a doubleton spade.

2) Remember that the 2♣ bid also covers weak hands (say 3-9hcp) with 4 spades and 6 diamonds. If opener has a maximum that wants to play 2♠ on a 4-3 fit opposite that hand by responder, they can certainly refuse the relay and bid 2♠. (At least that's the case in the versions of XYZ i've played.) I don't think this is one of those hands.

[lycier]

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I like this bidding sequences.

[mike777]

dboxley, on 2015-April-28, 18:45, said:

Does this mean that opener will automatically correct to 2/3NT with a doubleton spade? And is there any good reason why opener can't refuse the relay and bid 2S since the worst that can happen is a 43 fit rather than 2D? I am just trying to wrap my mind around XYZ and I see this as a real problem.

The most common version of xyz is where 2c forces 2d
However some play 2c does not 100% force 2d, you may show major support.
fwiw I prefer to just have 2c force 2d.
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Please note playing XYZ you can generate all sorts of auctions. You will agree to the few that are very common. However many many minority auctions will end up never being discussed. Some prefer to memorize, most of us don't.
the general rule is:
2c is invite or weakish with long d.
2d=gf
common rule but some disagree after 1X1Y1Z:
3c=weakish with long clubs
3d or 3h or 3s=natural and slam try.

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Please keep in mind it is somewhat common to raise on 3 card support and shortness after:

1x=1 major
2 major.

but I am unclear whether meckwell raises on 3 or does not??

[rhm]

dboxley, on 2015-April-28, 18:45, said:

Does this mean that opener will automatically correct to 2/3NT with a doubleton spade? And is there any good reason why opener can't refuse the relay and bid 2S since the worst that can happen is a 43 fit rather than 2D? I am just trying to wrap my mind around XYZ and I see this as a real problem.

akwoo, on 2015-April-28, 19:07, said:

2) Remember that the 2♣ bid also covers weak hands (say 3-9hcp) with 4 spades and 6 diamonds. If opener has a maximum that wants to play 2♠ on a 4-3 fit opposite that hand by responder, they can certainly refuse the relay and bid 2♠. (At least that's the case in the versions of XYZ i've played.) I don't think this is one of those hands.

This argument is always brought forward in support of the puppet.
I can not remember when I had last time a hand with 4 spades and 6 diamonds in this range and being allowed to play 2 diamonds with opponents being silent throughout. I find this argument weak.
If responder can hold 4-6, he can also hold 5-5 with about 9-10 points (or weaker) where he is only interested in a major suit game (or partial) if opener has three cards in the major and wants to play 2♦ otherwise.
The worst what can happen if you do not puppet with 4-6 is that responder will have to play the 4-3 major suit instead of the minor suit fit or will have to rebid 3♦.
I find it more useful if 2♦ denies 3 cards in responders major.
Hamman is also a proponent of this style.

Rainer Herrmann

[PhantomSac]

4-6 lol

[zillahandp]

Another hand with which the weak nt works well, try 1nt 2h trfr, 2s, 3d, 4s.

[Trinidad]

zillahandp, on 2015-April-29, 17:02, said:

Another hand with which the weak nt works well, try 1nt 2h trfr, 2s, 3d, 4s.

Actually, this is another fine hand for the famous Trinidad 2♦.

The auction simply goes:
2♦¹-4♠<sup>2

1</sup>Trinidad 2♦ opening, promising exactly: ♠KT2 ♥K9832 ♦A3 ♣K96
²Responder places the contract.

Notice how the defenders are kept in the dark about declarer's hand, one of the major advantages of the Trinidad 2♦ opening.

The South hand is also perfect for psyching a Tobago 2♦ opening. (You probably know this already, but for the sake of completion I will say that a Tobago 2♦ opening promises: ♠KT3 ♥K9832 ♦A3 ♣K96.) Again, the good contract of 4♠ is reached, played by the hidden hand and the opponents have been tricked about dummy's trump strength, which can't be bad.

Seriously, for every hand there is a system that works well for that hand (but not so well for others). Sometimes a weak NT works well, and sometimes a strong NT works well, and sometimes it doesn't really matter. But let's just bid the hands according to the system that the OP has given, perhaps unless we really think that his system is completely unplayable.

Rik

[WellSpyder]

I understand now why one often sees Trinidad and Tobago being combined. That way, you have a convention that comes up twice as often as either of the individual alternative conventions, with only a minor loss of bidding accuracy....

[mike777]

Keep in mind that:

1x=1major
2major will cover many of these hands with only 3 card raise.

that makes:

1x=1major
1z=2c!
2major and a minimum rare.

so I feel comfortable with having 2c force 2d
but if you prefer other ..ok.