[Schultz112]

We play a Precision structure where 1♥/♠ is 5+crd w/10-15hcp.
We where thinking that a GF relay in 1N or 2C, where one can reveal the exact distribution on openers hand, where worth trying.

Any comments and/or links

[straube]

A lot of folks (including Zelandakh) play 1N as GI+ relay. I don't see how 1N as GF relay would work.

I like 1N as semiforcing and 2C as GF relay.

[benlessard]

The good thing of early GF is that it setup FP the bad thing is that opps can now bid with a weak 2 instead of having a real 2 level overcall. I believe stopping them from overcalling is better than being in a better shape to deal over their overcalls.

[Kungsgeten]

I think the 2C relay method is easier to play, since negative NT is a convention many people use. Take a look at Ice Relay, Auken-Welland or Muller-de Wijs if looking for systems that use 1NT as GF relay. You should also read up on symmetric relay, since symmetric principles make relays easier.

If using 2C as the relay, this is one method:

1S---
1NT = non-forcing
2C = GF relay
2D = Hearts, constructive with 6+, limit or better with 5+
2H = Good three card spade raise
2S = Bad spade raise
2NT = 4 spades, limit+
3m/H = INV
3S = preemptive, or mixed raise if preferred

1S--2C;
2D = 4+ clubs or any 5440
2H = 4+ diamonds
2S = 4 hearts
2NT = Single-suited (6+ spades or 5332) short hearts (hi shortness) or 6322 with two hearts
3C = Single-suited, short diamonds (mid shortness)
3D = Single-suited, equal shortness (if 6322 then 3 hearts)
3H and higher = Single-suited, short clubs (low shortness) and full distribution

Now this is symmetric, so when responser relays the second time, the same type of hand will land in the same spot:

1S--2C; 2D--2H;
2S = Any 5440, relay for shortness
2NT = 5-5 spades and clubs
3C = 4 clubs, high shortness
3D = 4 clubs, equal shortness (can be played as just 5422 to save space and put 7411 elsewhere)
3H and higher = 4 clubs, low shortness and full distribution

The main problem with this structure is hands with 5-5 majors.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, we use something similar

1S-2C either GI with exactly 4 hearts or any GF relay

2D-5440s, 5332s or clubs
.....2S-5440s, 5332s
..........3C-5332s
..........etc-5440s
.....etc-clubs
2H-4+ diamonds
2S-6S
2N-4H, higher or even
3C-4H, lower short
etc-5H

If responder breaks relay he's making a natural bid that also promises GI with 4 hearts.

[Trick13]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-April-21, 18:31, said:

1S---
...
2H = Good three card spade raise
2S = Bad spade raise
....

Isn't it better to reverse the above two? The problem is that it will normally go 1S - 2S - end, so the 2S response is under-utilised.


1S---
...
2H = Non-invitational spade raise OR something else (e.g. 5+H, invitational (rebids 2NT) or GF (rebids a suit or 3NT))
2S = Constructive spade raise (game tries ensue)
....

[nige1]

IMO, After 1♠ - ??

• 1N = NAT 6-11 HCP. NF. (2♣ rebid = ART. Gazzilli. 14-15 HCP or ♣s.)
• 2♣ = REL. 12+ HCP. F1. (2♦ is a weak rebid). Other rebids GF).
• 2♦ = TRF. 5+ ♥s.
• 2♥ = TRF. Good 3-card raise.
• 2♠ = NAT. 0-7 HCP. Nonconstructive.

[awm]

A bunch of points to make here:

1. Opponents should really play methods where they can get in easily on shapely hands after 1X-P-Relay. This is true almost regardless of what minimum strength the relay bid shows. Getting in aggressively will disrupt the auction when the opening side has most of the values (which is often true even if the relay includes very bad hands). Further, it's fairly safe to pass here and come in later with a good hand (usually by doubling), because people playing a wide-ranging relay response will not want opener to jump around very often (meaning the auction is still at a manageable level most of the time after opener's rebid). Assuming opponents are aware of this, it's much better to play a GF relay than a potentially weaker relay, because you gain forcing passes and can penalize more easily when it's right. Of course, not all opponents will be aware.

2. Assuming you are playing a GF relay, your non-relay auctions will be a lot better if the relay is 2♣. You gain a 1NT response (forcing or non-forcing) which helps a lot in scrambling for a partial when responder does not fit opener's suit. It's pretty common to have something like a 1(435) or 1444 hand when partner opens 1♠, or to have a hand with doubleton spade which is just a little to good to pass, etc. If 1NT is the relay, you have a very tough time with these hands (probably will often end up passing if game is unlikely, but this means a lot of wrong partials which add up even at IMPs). You do get slightly better relay continuations by letting 1NT be the relay, but I think this is not worthwhile.

3. When people suggest 1♠-2♥ as a good spade raise, the intent is that this handles something like 8-11 point hands with the 2♠ being more like 5-8. This does not mean 2♠ is so bad that opener is "always passing" or anything of that sort, so flipping these and then adding other hand types into the weaker raise is a potentially huge disaster (because you want opener to be able to blast 4♠ on shapely hands where it might make and leave opponents in the dark, and you simply cannot do this if 2♥ might not be a fit). Further, you don't want to give opponents a cheap entry to the auction when responder has the weak raise (either by doubling the 2♥ bid, or by passing and then bidding to distinguish hand type/strength from a direct bid). I think it's much better for 2♥ to be the good raise for these reasons (rather than vice-versa).

[benlessard]

Quote

1. Opponents should really play methods where they can get in easily on shapely hands after 1X-P-Relay. This is true almost regardless of what minimum strength the relay bid shows. Getting in aggressively will disrupt the auction when the opening side has most of the values (which is often true even if the relay includes very bad hands). Further, it's fairly safe to pass here and come in later with a good hand (usually by doubling), because people playing a wide-ranging relay response will not want opener to jump around very often (meaning the auction is still at a manageable level most of the time after opener's rebid). Assuming opponents are aware of this, it's much better to play a GF relay than a potentially weaker relay, because you gain forcing passes and can penalize more easily when it's right. Of course, not all opponents will be aware.

I disagree 100% Im wondering what kind of non-GF relays did you play to reach a conclusion so far opposite of mine.

IMo if they have a chance to make a game they need to bid constructively and not disruptively the same way they need to bid with values over a weak NT or over a Polish club & even over a 14-16 NT.
Afer (1Y)--P--(1Rel)--you simply cannot bid 2 something with a range of 6-17 pts. Passing and bidding doesnt work as well as you think even if its often the proper strategy.

in less than one year ive seen this exact same auction close to 12 times at least 3 of them our opps missed a game and once he went for -500 against a -110.

South open with a strong club 15+

1C--(P)--1H--(P)
1S-- all pass.

1C is 15+
1H is S weak or GF (0-5 or 9+).
1S is showing at least 3S 15-20 (2S would show 19-21 with 4S).

They could make 3NT+1 once and 3nt equal twice.
The 3 times East had 14-17 pts with 3or4 spades, he know responder is weak (0-5) but opener hand is over him so he cannot really overcall 1NT. West was never close to get into the auction.

This is over 1C and the bidding died at the one level ! after a 1M opening passing and planning to bid later with a good hand is even worse since you will often be over 2M.

Im not a big believer in natural 1NT overcall, so for me being VS artificial openings its the perfect opportunity to use a direct 1NT for disruptive stuff (1m)--1NT as any 5-5, this got a nice frequency and is annoying to defend against. This mean we have to pass and X for the strong nt hand and I can tell you that its not always working.

Ive also tried. (1S)--2Y = something like a decent weak 2 to a 14 pts overcall. With a stronger overcall 15-19 we overcalled an artificial 1NT. My idea was that with a strong hand its possible advancer would have a fit but was not able to raise you anyway.

EX with standard method (1S)--2C--(2S)--?? here i was hoping that if overcaller is pretty strong (15-18) advancer may not be able to raise to 3C with a club fit anyway so i felt that 1NT with a strong unknown 2 level overcall might work. If the overcaller is short in S he could X 2S anyway and if advancer was short in S he could compete knowing overcaller was 15-18 and had a long suit somewhere. It did good in MP but not so well in Imps. When we bid 2Y it was of course a good winner, the frequency is high and the annoyance effect is pretty good. However the problems are of course for the 1NT... wrongside NT contract, possible that your suit get buried and opps can play NFB over it. Anyway my point is that Ive often pass with a good hand hoping to bid later more than many players and its not such a great idea, im not syaing its bad but its not a perfect solution. So that why bids that warn the opps that they are not likely to have game on their side are costing something.

With my system and playing vs Vgood players this discussion happened.

Me--"we play weak NT and strong club at 15+ but our other opening are not limited"

Them--"what your NT range?"

-- 12-14 all seat all vul

-- so with 15 bal you open 1C ?

-- Yes

They start to discuss between each other... Normally we play suction but 15+ is not so strong ...it may easily be our hand... bla bla bla --- ok lets play Mathe and bid constructively.

At least 3 top levels partnerships had similar discussions. I just think they made the right move there is a point where you simply cannot bid disruptively, its when your side still have some chance to have game.

This IMO explain the success of 14-16 NT range its simply an annoying range to play against, you cannot really play full disruptive against this range and you shoudl still think making a game your side is possible. Going from 15-17 to 14-16 simply stop a lot of weaks 2s overcall even if its just one point. Same idea for Polish clubs vs strong clubs, opening 1C with just strong hands is an invitation to be annoyed and basically tell the opps that they dont need to bother about games bid on pure power. I admit that many are simply trying too hard to bids and I miss the good penalties vs those maniacs. But overall having a weak NT hand under your forcing 1C opening is a decent plus to stop overcalls. Yes the forcing pass is very useful but stopping the weak's two overcall is better.

Quote

3. When people suggest 1♠-2♥ as a good spade raise, the intent is that this handles something like 8-11 point hands with the 2♠ being more like 5-8. This does not mean 2♠ is so bad that opener is "always passing" or anything of that sort, so flipping these and then adding other hand types into the weaker raise is a potentially huge disaster (because you want opener to be able to blast 4♠ on shapely hands where it might make and leave opponents in the dark

IMO This is not really a big issue you can just bid 3M (or another bid) as a "Im bidding 4S bid but im temporizing just in case that you have the exception hand". LHO didnt overcall over 1S and RHO didnt X 2H so they are not going to compete and temporizing with a fake bid cost little.

[Trick13]

awm, on 2015-April-23, 22:20, said:

3. When people suggest 1♠-2♥ as a good spade raise, the intent is that this handles something like 8-11 point hands with the 2♠ being more like 5-8. This does not mean 2♠ is so bad that opener is "always passing" or anything of that sort, so flipping these and then adding other hand types into the weaker raise is a potentially huge disaster (because you want opener to be able to blast 4♠ on shapely hands where it might make and leave opponents in the dark, and you simply cannot do this if 2♥ might not be a fit). Further, you don't want to give opponents a cheap entry to the auction when responder has the weak raise (either by doubling the 2♥ bid, or by passing and then bidding to distinguish hand type/strength from a direct bid). I think it's much better for 2♥ to be the good raise for these reasons (rather than vice-versa).

We flip the raises but the weak raise is so weak that opener is "always passing": 3-card support 0-6(7) opposite a max of 15: most of these hands would otherwise pass. It's not so easy to double 2♥ when the other meaning is ♥, mostly opps just wait until it is clarified and then enter the auction cheaply at the 3-level.

[Kungsgeten]

Trick13, on 2015-April-23, 15:02, said:

Isn't it better to reverse the above two? The problem is that it will normally go 1S - 2S - end, so the 2S response is under-utilised.


1S---
...
2H = Non-invitational spade raise OR something else (e.g. 5+H, invitational (rebids 2NT) or GF (rebids a suit or 3NT))
2S = Constructive spade raise (game tries ensue)
....

Well, it might be but a transfer raise gives your opponents the posibility to enter the auction in various ways, a direct raise is more preemptive when it is likely to be the opponents' board. Not sure if this below is the best defense, but:

1S--(P)--2H---
Dbl = 5+ hearts
2S = 4 hearts and 5+ minor
2NT = Both minors
3m = Good overcall

1S--(P)--2H--(P); 2S--(P)--P---
Dbl = Balanced take-out
2NT = Natural
3m = Balancing overcall

I also believe that the transfer raise can be done with hands that want to take another bid:

a) Constructive raise, will pass if opener rebid the major
b) Limit raise with 3-card support, will raise opener or bid 2NT
c) GF with 3-card support, will bid 3NT or own suit (which shows 5+ suit)

[straube]

Trick13, on 2015-April-24, 05:14, said:

We flip the raises but the weak raise is so weak that opener is "always passing": 3-card support 0-6(7) opposite a max of 15: most of these hands would otherwise pass. It's not so easy to double 2♥ when the other meaning is ♥, mostly opps just wait until it is clarified and then enter the auction cheaply at the 3-level.

If you raise the ceiling of the weak raise a point or two then opener can bid over it (to compete or to invite game)...so 1S-2S (weak) isn't necessarily a dead end. It's just that he needs a 6-cd suit to bid beyond 2S. We've basically made our strong raise (2H) 9+ if a balanced 3-cd raise (or less with compensating distribution) which allows opener to invite with 5-cd suits and maximums.

[Trick13]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-April-24, 07:01, said:

Well, it might be but a transfer raise gives your opponents the posibility to enter the auction in various ways, a direct raise is more preemptive when it is likely to be the opponents' board. Not sure if this below is the best defense, but:

1S--(P)--2H---
Dbl = 5+ hearts
2S = 4 hearts and 5+ minor
2NT = Both minors
3m = Good overcall

1S--(P)--2H--(P); 2S--(P)--P---
Dbl = Balanced take-out
2NT = Natural
3m = Balancing overcall

This won't happen IRL. But even if the opponents were prepared, we are talking about auctions that would otherwise often have gone 1S-(P)-P, and I don't think we have done ourselves any damage.

Kungsgeten, on 2015-April-24, 07:01, said:

I also believe that the transfer raise can be done with hands that want to take another bid:

a) Constructive raise, will pass if opener rebid the major
b) Limit raise with 3-card support, will raise opener or bid 2NT
c) GF with 3-card support, will bid 3NT or own suit (which shows 5+ suit)

Yes this is good. Transfers are great.

[Trick13]

straube, on 2015-April-24, 09:40, said:

If you raise the ceiling of the weak raise a point or two then opener can bid over it (to compete or to invite game)...so 1S-2S (weak) isn't necessarily a dead end. It's just that he needs a 6-cd suit to bid beyond 2S. We've basically made our strong raise (2H) 9+ if a balanced 3-cd raise (or less with compensating distribution) which allows opener to invite with 5-cd suits and maximums.

That works.

Actually we haven't deliberately switched the meaning of the raises, it has just fallen out of the idea that if partner opens a limited hand and we are weak but have some support or shape, wouldn't if be great if we could bid some more in relative safety.

1♠ - 2♣ = weak with ♦ or good with ♣
1♠ - 2♦ = weak with ♥ or good with ♦
1♠ - 2♥ = weak with ♠ or good with ♥

[awm]

In response to this very long post by Benlessard....

There are a number of things here that I don't think are really good comparisons. For example, a 14-16 1NT is very frequently passed out and this puts a lot of pressure on opponents to act right away, a pressure that doesn't exist after 1♠-P-1NT (relay) or after 1♣ (strong) or 1♣ (strong) - P - 1♦ (negative, but forcing). The other hands are not real clear to me either; obviously when holding a 14-17 point balanced hand there is no great solution after 1♣ (strong) - P - 1♦ - P - 1♠ - P - P, but it doesn't seem like bidding directly over 1♦ is a great solution (in fact it's potentially more likely that you go for a number). Then again 1♠-P-P in standard on the same hand isn't great either, so to some degree you are just fixed by the location of values?

In fact the methods I'm advocating (pass first with most good hands, bid directly on shapely hands with high ODR) is virtually standard defense to polish 1♣. The methods here, where there is a nebulous bid which could be weak or strong but is definitely forcing, seem to have some commonalities.

For example, suppose the auction starts 1♠-P-1NT and you hold either:

A. ♠xx ♥AQJxxx ♦xxx ♣xx
B. ♠xx ♥AQJxxx ♦Axx ♣Ax

The conventional wisdom when opponents play standard methods (regardless of whether 1NT is forcing, semi-forcing, or NF) is to overcall with B and pass with A. However, when you move to a method where 1NT is relay, odds start to swing towards bidding with A. This is because of: 1. Frequency (1NT now includes a whole bunch of stronger hands and may be missing some weak shapely hands that would otherwise be there, increasing the frequency of A relative to B) 2. Disruption (since 1NT covers a wider range of hand types, some of which are quite strong, it pays to get in early and disrupt the relays on a weak but offensively-oriented hand like A) 3. Ability to bid later (1NT is 100% forcing and opener is unlikely to jump around because this would disrupt the relays, somewhat increasing the odds you can bid later with B). Of course you could try bidding 2♥ on both A and B (but this seems to cause partner unsolvable problems on some balanced 10-11 count) or you could play some artificial method here (which is reasonable but requires some work).

[yunling]

awm, on 2015-April-25, 21:41, said:

In response to this very long post by Benlessard....

There are a number of things here that I don't think are really good comparisons. For example, a 14-16 1NT is very frequently passed out and this puts a lot of pressure on opponents to act right away, a pressure that doesn't exist after 1♠-P-1NT (relay) or after 1♣ (strong) or 1♣ (strong) - P - 1♦ (negative, but forcing). The other hands are not real clear to me either; obviously when holding a 14-17 point balanced hand there is no great solution after 1♣ (strong) - P - 1♦ - P - 1♠ - P - P, but it doesn't seem like bidding directly over 1♦ is a great solution (in fact it's potentially more likely that you go for a number). Then again 1♠-P-P in standard on the same hand isn't great either, so to some degree you are just fixed by the location of values?

In fact the methods I'm advocating (pass first with most good hands, bid directly on shapely hands with high ODR) is virtually standard defense to polish 1♣. The methods here, where there is a nebulous bid which could be weak or strong but is definitely forcing, seem to have some commonalities.

For example, suppose the auction starts 1♠-P-1NT and you hold either:

A. ♠xx ♥AQJxxx ♦xxx ♣xx
B. ♠xx ♥AQJxxx ♦Axx ♣Ax

The conventional wisdom when opponents play standard methods (regardless of whether 1NT is forcing, semi-forcing, or NF) is to overcall with B and pass with A. However, when you move to a method where 1NT is relay, odds start to swing towards bidding with A. This is because of: 1. Frequency (1NT now includes a whole bunch of stronger hands and may be missing some weak shapely hands that would otherwise be there, increasing the frequency of A relative to B) 2. Disruption (since 1NT covers a wider range of hand types, some of which are quite strong, it pays to get in early and disrupt the relays on a weak but offensively-oriented hand like A) 3. Ability to bid later (1NT is 100% forcing and opener is unlikely to jump around because this would disrupt the relays, somewhat increasing the odds you can bid later with B). Of course you could try bidding 2♥ on both A and B (but this seems to cause partner unsolvable problems on some balanced 10-11 count) or you could play some artificial method here (which is reasonable but requires some work).

I'm not convinced that it works well here. It is quite possible that the weak hand will correct to 2♠ when it comes back to you, so only with hands able to stand 3 level can you use pass-then-bid strategy.
There are many hands, though quite strong, cannot bid 3 level on its own, say
♠Axx
♥AQJxx
♦AQxx
♣x
You'll stuck after 1♠-1NT-2m-2♠
Thus if you use disruptive overcalls it is hard to handle these hands.

[awm]

yunling, on 2015-April-26, 07:06, said:

I'm not convinced that it works well here. It is quite possible that the weak hand will correct to 2♠ when it comes back to you, so only with hands able to stand 3 level can you use pass-then-bid strategy.
There are many hands, though quite strong, cannot bid 3 level on its own, say
♠Axx
♥AQJxx
♦AQxx
♣x
You'll stuck after 1♠-1NT-2m-2♠
Thus if you use disruptive overcalls it is hard to handle these hands.

FWIW, I would double 1NT on this hand regardless of overcall range. The point is not that playing disruptive overcalls solves all problems (indeed, it does present problems on the stronger hands), it's that the frequencies and cost/benefit tradeoffs change when 1NT is (on average) stronger.

[hrothgar]

awm, on 2015-April-23, 22:20, said:

A bunch of points to make here:

1. Opponents should really play methods where they can get in easily on shapely hands after 1X-P-Relay. This is true almost regardless of what minimum strength the relay bid shows. Getting in aggressively will disrupt the auction when the opening side has most of the values (which is often true even if the relay includes very bad hands). Further, it's fairly safe to pass here and come in later with a good hand (usually by doubling), because people playing a wide-ranging relay response will not want opener to jump around very often (meaning the auction is still at a manageable level most of the time after opener's rebid). Assuming opponents are aware of this, it's much better to play a GF relay than a potentially weaker relay, because you gain forcing passes and can penalize more easily when it's right. Of course, not all opponents will be aware.

Playing MOSCITO, we typically have more than one way to initiate a GF auction or show a gmae invite with a fit

For example, following a 1♥ opening (showing 4+ Spades and ~9 - 14 HCPs)

• 4♣ / 4♦ / 4♥ are splinters
  
• 3♣ / 3♦ / 3♥ are sit jumps
  
• 2NT shows a limit raise + with 4 card support
  
• 4S and 3N are both game forcing

Consequently, the relay normally denies a fit for opener's known suit.

You're welcome to be intervening in our relay auctions with weak shapely hands. Just know that we'll be doubling for blood.

[benlessard]

Yesterday ive played vs a top pair from Canada who are playing PC and he told me that he has been playing PC for more than 15 years and artificial methods do not work so well vs a PC and he prefer natural methods. I know that he often play natural and 1NT raptor. I do not know if passing and bidding later is considered not natural for him however. My Russian partner who played PC for 15 years in Russia told me about the same thing.

I agree that my examples are quite different than in the OP but I just wanted to show the importance of that modern trend for bridge "if they could still have game they need to bid constructively so they wont annoy us as much as if we show them that we are GF" Im a strong believer in that principle so that why I like my 1S-1NT to be 5+ and not 11+. I also like 1S-2C to be GF or S raise and 1S-2S to be 4-7. After my 1C (15+) none of our responses under 2S guarantee pts, they only promise some lenght. Its quite unusual but its tough to defend. Ive played 1C-1D as 0-8/ or 0-4 with semi positive or better. Ive also play 1D semi-positive, a bid for weak and the rest is GF. I am now strongly convinced weak or GF/ semi pos is the way to go you lose the forcing pass but you just gain more in overall comp bidding.

Also in practice 1C--(P)--2D--(2S) (2D =6H w or gf) ive never saw a pair that was willing to play direct 2S is diruptive delayed 2S is real overcall.

Same over a weak NT & transfers.
1NT--(P)--2D--(2S) did you ever meet a pair that played 2S disruptive and pass and 2S good hand ? So even if pass and bid worked (wich im not convinced) most players wont do it anyway. So that why 1S-1NT 5+ will stop a lot of weak two's overcall while 1S-1NT (gf or limit+) will invite them.

I agree with Awm that opps should lower their overcall range. So instead of 10-18 for a 2 level overcall something like 8-16 and the X of the relay should be 17+ or normal meaning but in practice many wont think about it.

[yunling]

awm, on 2015-April-26, 10:10, said:

FWIW, I would double 1NT on this hand regardless of overcall range. The point is not that playing disruptive overcalls solves all problems (indeed, it does present problems on the stronger hands), it's that the frequencies and cost/benefit tradeoffs change when 1NT is (on average) stronger.

Maybe not a good example my bad. But I think the loss in the constructive bidding is significant.
On the other hand, disruptive 2 level overcalls is something like a gamble, since it is not very space consuming and give away a lot of information. It gains from unfamiliarity but playing against well prepared opponents it is may not turn out to be a winner.
1H-1NT-(2S) probably work well but I don't think it is as good to play 1S-1NT-(2x) this way.