[keithhus]

I found the discussion on the definition of Acol most interesting. Thank you

I have a question regarding alerting .

I have got into hot water recently because I have failed to alert/stop BUT more importantly, alerted when I was the bidder - e.g. 4C(gerber). Could someone tell me please what the rationale is for the bidder's partner to alert; what is so wrong with the bidder alerting staymen/gerber etc. and why do you have to alert a jump (stop). Thanks

[MrAce]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-06, 12:54, said:

I found the discussion on the definition of Acol most interesting. Thank you

I have a question regarding alerting .

I have got into hot water recently because I have failed to alert/stop BUT more importantly, alerted when I was the bidder - e.g. 4C(gerber). Could someone tell me please what the rationale is for the bidder's partner to alert; what is so wrong with the bidder alerting staymen/gerber etc. and why do you have to alert a jump (stop). Thanks

You do not alert your bids simply because when you do, you are also telling your pd what your bid meant. There are exceptions to this but those are not "alerts", they are announcements and not every country uses it, in USA we announce our NT range for example and/or transfer over NT. You can, however, alert your bid in a game where there are screens at the table, to the screen mate opponent. (even then you do this in a fashion, such as by writing it on a paper or a gesture to your opponent, so that your pd can not hear or sense it.)

[Vampyr]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-06, 12:54, said:

I found the discussion on the definition of Acol most interesting. Thank you

I have a question regarding alerting .

I have got into hot water recently because I have failed to alert/stop BUT more importantly, alerted when I was the bidder - e.g. 4C(gerber). Could someone tell me please what the rationale is for the bidder's partner to alert; what is so wrong with the bidder alerting staymen/gerber etc. and why do you have to alert a jump (stop). Thanks

If you alert (and then, if asked, explain your bid), the opponents are getting the information they need but so is your partner. Maybe partner forgot or is unsure. These alerts and explanations would be a way of communicating with partner, and to do so other than by bids and plays is illegal. Online and behind screens you alert and explain your own bids. This is different because partner does not know that you are doing it.

I assume that you are in the UK. Here, Staymen is announced because almost everyone plays it. The purpose of alerting is to tell opponents that the bid is not what they expect and they might want to know, so the alert is used if they are playing Keri, Heenen etc and not Stayman. Or if they are playing 2-way Stayman.

About Gerber, well, the regulation here is that bids above 3NT are not alerted unless they are in the first round of the auction. But alerts for ace-asking bids were abolished before this change, because they (usually inadvertently I hope) led to 2-way bids; ie you knew whether your partner was answering the query if he alerted. I have had auctions where, for example, I bid 4m, thinking it was RKCB, partner bid 4 NT, which he intended as RKCB a while I thought he was answering... alerts would have shown us that we were not on the same page, and while we would not have used the information and would have remained each in our own little world I think that a lot of pairs found it hard.

Finally, after a jump bid the next player may need extra time to think. So you take out the stop card and hold it out for approx 10 seconds, and LHO does not bid until you put it away. This way LHO avoids giving the information to his partner whether he needed the time to think of his next call.

In some countries the stop card is used for competitive bids at the 3-level and higher, which is a very good idea. I would guess that at least half of the appeals in this country are the result of pauses in these situations.

EDIT: some of this information is redundant; crossed above post.

EDIT: I keft out that behind screens you also alert partner's bids, of course.

[helene_t]

 MrAce, on 2015-April-06, 13:40, said:

You do not alert your bids simply because when you do, you are also telling your pd what your bid meant. There are exceptions to this but those are not "alerts", they are announcements and not every country uses it, in USA we announce our NT range for example and/or transfer over NT.

Announcements are not exceptions to the rule that it is partner that alerts since announcements are also made by partner.

[MrAce]

 helene_t, on 2015-April-06, 14:06, said:

Announcements are not exceptions to the rule that it is partner that alerts since announcements are also made by partner.

Right, my bad. I was intending to say that it was an exception to let pd know what you meant and/or what you think he meant. Came out wrong.

[helene_t]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-06, 12:54, said:

why do you have to alert a jump (stop).

A jump bid is not alerted (well it may be alerted also if it happens to be artificial or having an unexpected meaning but that is a different issue).

The stop card is, unlike the alert card and announcements, used by the bidder. Since it merely says that the bid is a jump (something everyone can see already) it doesn't cary any information. This in intentional - you have to use it consistently because if you only use it for some jumps, you would be giving unauthorised information to partner (I know some beginners who think they can use the stop card to tell partner that their jump is meant as preemptive but that is illegal! ).

The purpose of the stop card is to remind LHO that he has to wait at least ten seconds before making a call. Thereby the opponents avoid giving UI to each other by distinguishing between for example a slow pass and a fast pass (since every pass will be slow after the use of the stop card).

Ideally, the stop card should be used in situations where LHO is likely to have something to think about, but that is a bit difficult to formalize. So therefore most countries (including England) have the simple rule that you use the stop card when and only when you make a jump bid. Some countries have different rules for use of the stop card.

Online, there is no stop card, and you alert/anounce your own calls, not partner's. This is because partner can't see your alerts so there is no risk of transmitting unauthorized information.

[keithhus]

 Vampyr, on 2015-April-06, 13:48, said:

If you alert (and then, if asked, explain your bid), the opponents are getting the information they need but so is your partner. Maybe partner forgot or is unsure. These alerts and explanations would be a way of communicating with partner, and to do so other than by bids and plays is illegal. Online and behind screens you alert and explain your own bids. This is different because partner does not know that you are doing it.

I assume that you are in the UK. Here, Staymen is announced because almost everyone plays it. The purpose of alerting is to tell opponents that the bid is not what they expect and they might want to know, so the alert is used if they are playing Keri, Heenen etc and not Stayman. Or if they are playing 2-way Stayman.

About Gerber, well, the regulation here is that bids above 3NT are not alerted unless they are in the first round of the auction. But alerts for ace-asking bids were abolished before this change, because they (usually inadvertently I hope) led to 2-way bids; ie you knew whether your partner was answering the query if he alerted. I have had auctions where, for example, I bid 4m, thinking it was RKCB, partner bid 4 NT, which he intended as RKCB a while I thought he was answering... alerts would have shown us that we were not on the same page, and while we would not have used the information and would have remained each in our own little world I think that a lot of pairs found it hard.

Finally, after a jump bid the next player may need extra time to think. So you take out the stop card and hold it out for approx 10 seconds, and LHO does not bid until you put it away. This way LHO avoids giving the information to his partner whether he needed the time to think of his next call.

In some countries the stop card is used for competitive bids at the 3-level and higher, which is a very good idea. I would guess that at least half of the appeals in this country are the result of pauses in these situations.

EDIT: some of this information is redundant; crossed above post.

EDIT: I keft out that behind screens you also alert partner's bids, of course.

Thank you for your reply. Just for clarification, re your comment on bids above 3nt - E.g Gerber, are you saying that alerts are not necessary? If so and ops ask for clarification, who answers, bidder or partner? Thanks.

[helene_t]

partner always answer the question, regardless of whether he alerted the call or not

[Vampyr]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-06, 15:48, said:

Thank you for your reply. Just for clarification, re your comment on bids above 3nt - E.g Gerber, are you saying that alerts are not necessary? If so and ops ask for clarification, who answers, bidder or partner? Thanks.

Gerber is alerted only when it is bid on the first round of the auction (the first round starts when then opening bid is made).

Also note that if partner has given an incorrect explanation of your bid or has incorrectly alerted or not alerted one of your bids, you must tell the opponents a) when you are the declaring side, before the opening bid is faced or b) when you are the defenders, as soon as play of the hand finishes.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2015-April-06, 16:10, said:

Gerber is alerted only when it is bid on the first round of the auction (the first round starts when then opening bid is made).

Also note that if partner has given an incorrect explanation of your bid or has incorrectly alerted or not alerted one of your bids, you must tell the opponents a) when you are the declaring side, before the opening bid is faced or b) when you are the defenders, as soon as play of the hand finishes.

You are, btw, also supposed to call the director before you correct partner's mis-explanation, but almost nobody does.

[euclidz]

In the UK Gerber (unless it is an opening bid) (and most everything else above 3NT) is not alerted. For the same reasons given above . . . partners bids 4C (is that Gerber or an invitation to 5C, I'll alert it so that partner will know I've taken it as Gerber)


https://www.ebu.co.u...ments-table.pdf

[campboy]

 euclidz, on 2015-April-07, 01:28, said:

In the UK Gerber (unless it is an opening bid) (and most everything else above 3NT) is not alerted. For the same reasons given above . . . partners bids 4C (is that Gerber or an invitation to 5C, I'll alert it so that partner will know I've taken it as Gerber)

Not just an opening bid -- it's alerted if (and only if) it is on the first round of the auction. So in the more plausible auctions 1NT (pass) 4♣ and (1♥) 1NT (pass) 4♣, Gerber requires an alert.

[keithhus]

 Vampyr, on 2015-April-06, 16:10, said:

Gerber is alerted only when it is bid on the first round of the auction (the first round starts when then opening bid is made).

Also note that if partner has given an incorrect explanation of your bid or has incorrectly alerted or not alerted one of your bids, you must tell the opponents a) when you are the declaring side, before the opening bid is faced or b) when you are the defenders, as soon as play of the hand finishes.

Could you tell me please what is meant by faced, thanks.

[Cyberyeti]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-07, 04:29, said:

Could you tell me please what is meant by faced, thanks.

It's normal to make the opening lead face down, it's then faced when you turn it face up.

[helene_t]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-07, 04:29, said:

Could you tell me please what is meant by faced, thanks.

The defender on lead first puts down the card he intends to lead face-down. This is the time for declarer and dummy to correct any misexplanations or missing alerts. Such correction may affect the choice of opening lead and it may even affect the auction.

Once the leader's partner has said "thank you, know questions" and the lead card has been faced (i.e. turned around so that everyone can see which card it is), it is too late to change the lead card or to do anything about the auction, so if declarer or dummy at this point says that there was a missing alert it can get awkward. Better late than never, though.

[1eyedjack]

I take the view that if declarer or dummy is aware that one of them has given misinformation during the auction, they should volunteer that before the opening leader has even chosen a lead face DOWN. That is also the time for opening leader to ask any questions of interest to him.

The reason for leading face down is then to prevent opening leader from changing his mind based on his partner's then questions about the auction (which he should have asked about himself before choosing a face down lead, if interested). I suppose that if partner's questions then bring to light some earlier misinformation, then leader can change his mind.

It is all designed to maximise AI while minimising UI and minimising the damage arising from MI.

[barmar]

 1eyedjack, on 2015-April-07, 06:29, said:

I take the view that if declarer or dummy is aware that one of them has given misinformation during the auction, they should volunteer that before the opening leader has even chosen a lead face DOWN. That is also the time for opening leader to ask any questions of interest to him.

That's correct. Law 20F5b(II) says that the time to correct a misexplanation is "for declarer or dummy, after the final pass of the auction.".

If he waits until the opening leader has made a face-down lead, the lead can be retracted and changed. He can also change it if the correction is made after the lead is faced, but before dummy's cards are exposed. If the correction is made after that, and the director believes the defenders were damaged by the misexplanation, he should award an adjusted score. See Law 472 for the specific wording.

[Vampyr]

 euclidz, on 2015-April-07, 01:28, said:

partners bids 4C (is that Gerber or an invitation to 5C, I'll alert it so that partner will know I've taken it as Gerber)

Yes, this is the trouble with alerting Gerber at any time. Blackwood, as it happens, is never alerted. This should really hold true for ace-asking bids in a suit too.

You do know, I assume, that deliberately alerting (when not required to) for partner's benefit is cheating, right?

[barmar]

In ACBL, Blackwood over suits and Gerber over NT are considered normal, and aren't alerted. But if you use Blackwood over NT or Gerber over suits, those are sufficiently unexpected that they should be alerted: immediate on the first round of bidding, or delayed alerts if used later. See the section on Ace Asking Bids in the ACBL Alert Procedures.