[fromageGB]

 NickRW, on 2014-November-07, 07:36, said:

What's wrong, though, with extending the range to be 19-20 (assuming, at any rate, your 1♣ opener is reasonably sound.

Nick

Absolutely nothing, though it is a question of degree and where your personal boundaries are. A good idea in my view.

My personal problem is that my newer partners are (like me) long in the tooth and can't cope with too many new things at a time. While I will suggest a change to the 2NT open, I have thrown a lot at them that they are still not fluent with. My "lifelong" partner had reached her "tolerance for change" saturation point a while ago.

[navahak]

 fromageGB, on 2014-November-07, 06:55, said:

It's not the strong hands that are the problem. I'm thinking of a 12 count opener and a 4 count responder laying themselves open to penalty doubles. I suppose this is no different from a very weak responder running from a weak 1NT doubled, but you are deliberately exposing yourself to extra risk for perhaps little gain.

Even when not doubled, your -200 is not usually a good score.

Is this data based on facts or just feeling without trying?

I have played that kind of responding style (without transfers) without issues. If I go -200 uncontested undoubled it is shockingly often that opponents forgot to bid their cold game (24-26 HCP in their way). Also penalty double after one suit opening is even harder than after weak 1NT. Most often we are in contested auction where passing with minimal hands doesn't even leave penalty double chances.

But of course in that style of biding it is nice to play 1M if holding 4 opposite 11 and opponents forgetting to bid.

[Fluffy]

21 balanced vs 4 balanced do not make game that often, the big gain comes from the exchanged information when it is a slam hand.

[dan_ehh]

Thank you all for your answers. I appreciate all of them.

[jallerton]

 Fluffy, on 2014-November-07, 05:28, said:

I have only played the 1M = 3 card support version, and I am convinced now that it is not optimum, 1NT rebid for 19 balanced is powerful.

I would like to toy around with a 2NT rebid with 20-21 leaving 2NT for 22-23 (or perhaps minors and kokish), but not sure how it would go, anyone got experience?

One of the advantages of using 1NT rebid as 17/18-19 is that the 2NT rebid can be used conventionally to cover hand types which are awkward to cope with in standard methods, e.g. strong hearts raises and strong club single-suiters. So you'd be giving up that by playing 1♣-1Red-2NT as 20-21 balanced

A more serious flaw with your suggestion is that you need to bear in mind that Responder does not always have a 4-card major to show! Without a major, he has to respond 1♠ or 1NT. Opener can no longer complete to 1M so all of the balanced hands have to bid one notch higher. After 1♣-1♠, the weak NT hands have to rebid 1NT, 2NT becomes 17/18-19, so what would you rebid on the 20-21 hand? 3NT, presumably, but that takes up am awful lot of room and you'll find it even more difficult to show a very strong hand with clubs.

[Cthulhu D]

 jallerton, on 2014-November-13, 16:59, said:

One of the advantages of using 1NT rebid as 17/18-19 is that the 2NT rebid can be used conventionally to cover hand types which are awkward to cope with in standard methods, e.g. strong hearts raises and strong club single-suiters. So you'd be giving up that by playing 1♣-1Red-2NT as 20-21 balanced

A more serious flaw with your suggestion is that you need to bear in mind that Responder does not always have a 4-card major to show! Without a major, he has to respond 1♠ or 1NT. Opener can no longer complete to 1M so all of the balanced hands have to bid one notch higher. After 1♣-1♠, the weak NT hands have to rebid 1NT, 2NT becomes 17/18-19, so what would you rebid on the 20-21 hand? 3NT, presumably, but that takes up am awful lot of room and you'll find it even more difficult to show a very strong hand with clubs.

The 2NT as 17-1+ with 4 card support or the BW of death hand is really powerful as well, like partner knows basically exactly what is going on and can assume captaincy if slam is in the offing or place the final contract. I wish I had slightly better methods to untangle what Opener has at the 3 level when responder is slam going, but that's life.

[fromageGB]

 jallerton, on 2014-November-13, 16:59, said:

A more serious flaw with your suggestion is that you need to bear in mind that Responder does not always have a 4-card major to show! Without a major, he has to respond 1♠ or 1NT. Opener can no longer complete to 1M so all of the balanced hands have to bid one notch higher. After 1♣-1♠, the weak NT hands have to rebid 1NT, 2NT becomes 17/18-19, so what would you rebid on the 20-21 hand? 3NT, presumably, but that takes up am awful lot of room and you'll find it even more difficult to show a very strong hand with clubs.

For the 19 count balanced hand I rebid 2♥ which at this point is either that, or a natural heart reverse. Responder relays with 2♠ and the reversing hand rebids 3♣ while the balanced hand rebids 2NT. You are now where you are with the 17/18 hand, and the same methods apply. Perhaps not perfect, but 2NT gives more options than 3NT. A strong opener with clubs simply rebids 3♣, but you are probably thinking of finer graduations.

The 3-way NT strength rebid comes with a cost, but it has benefits, and you pick your relative importance.

[jgillispie]

Roy Hughes "Building a Bidding System" suggests 1C-1D-1H/ 1C-1H-1S = 5+C; <3M; Unbalanced

[Cthulhu D]

 jgillispie, on 2014-November-19, 18:24, said:

Roy Hughes "Building a Bidding System" suggests 1C-1D-1H/ 1C-1H-1S = 5+C; <3M; Unbalanced

I think this makes a lot more sense if you are playing a weak NT. But with 4M why not raise?

[mrx]

 fromageGB, on 2014-November-07, 05:23, said:

1♣ 1red completion = 12-14, 2 or 3

My reasons for completing to be 2 or 3 card support 12-14 and 1NT to be 17/18 are that it makes it very east for responder to use stayman and transfers over the 1NT with major holdings in the same way as after a 1NT open, and everything is easy. Transfer with one major 5+, and if both majors bid 2♣. Intuitive and instinctive. After a major completion use 2♣/♦ artificially to show invitational or better hands with both or one major, and you get a fit with game invitation declined played by opener at the 2 level. This is a good use of the low-level opener continuation, as well as allowing a weak 5 card major to show that hand effectively by passing the completion.

Transfer with one major+, and if both majors bid 2 {clubs}, could you provide a little more detail, trying
to learn how to play this.

[fromageGB]

 mrx, on 2016-November-23, 13:13, said:

{After a start of 1♣ 1red 1NT} Transfer with one major+, and if both majors bid 2 {clubs}, could you provide a little more detail, trying
to learn how to play this.

This is not how I play with two majors now, but with one major, to show 5+ cards when opener rebids 1NT=17/18, say 1♣ 1♥=4+spades 1NT, 2♥ from you is a compulsory transfer to spades that shows 5+ and may be weak (pass 2♠) or strong (you rebid 2NT with 5 or 3♠ with 6). There is no point in my view in having an invitation over a 2-point range NT bid, so I would play these latter rebids as game forcing, probably slamming, as you could just bid game yourself. In other words, bid it just as you would if partner opened a 17/18 1NT.

If you did make an initial "1red" reply when you had both majors, and opener bid 1NT, then you would really need to be strong enough to play in 2NT on no fit. Initially transfer to the 5 card suit, if you have one, then over 1NT you can bid 2♣ as "stayman" to show that you also have 4 cards in the other major. Opener will bid that major if he also has 4 cards, failing which he will bid your initial major if he has 3 of them, so you will always find a fit.

This is simple but has some problems, the biggest of which is that the "stayman" rebid (2nd paragraph) means that you cannot bid 2♣ to play. With a 4 count 1426 (or maybe just 5 clubs 2425) shape I want to look for a major fit if there is one, and play in 2♣ if not.

My style now with both majors is to show them both immediately with replies of 1NT/2C/2D which means that the 2♣ rebid after the 1NT sequence we are discussing, has to be natural and to play. The main reason for showing both majors immediately is that it makes is so much easier when 4th seat opponent gets in the action. I find this lets me show all hand types and shapes exactly, as well as being able to play in either 2♣ or 2♦ when opener simply completes the initial major transfer on his 2 or 3 card 12-14. See the current thread My link and message me if you want more detail or discussion.

[benlessard]

You can even have 3 ranges if your willing that 1D doesnt always promise 4H, you will sometimes play 1H in a 43 fit with a 4-4 !S fit on the side (rarely cost IRL). Also 1C-1D-1S can be 3 cards if 3244,3235.

EX

1C-1D-1H= range 1&3
1C-1D-1NT range 2
1C-1D-2H = range 3 with 4 card support

1C-1D-1H-1S = do you have range 1 or 3 ?
1C-1D-1H-1NT= I dont have H i have !S and pts to GF vs range 3.

Note that responder with a certain range bid 1D even if he doesnt have 4H.

Basically you can play 1NT= 12-14 and 1C 15-20 bal or clubs and you will never play 2NT with less than 24 pts.

[benlessard]

If 1C got wide range of balanced hand I strongly believe that 1M as 3 or 4 is the way to go. With a min hand and 4 trumps support jumping to 2M is more preemptive but its pointless and costly in constructive auction. IMO its much much better to use the jump raise to 2M as a specific range.

[fromageGB]

 benlessard, on 2016-November-24, 12:35, said:

IMO its much much better to use the jump raise to 2M as a specific range.

It is in mine and normal methods - the range 12-14. I see no downsides.

[fromageGB]

 benlessard, on 2016-November-24, 12:26, said:

You can even have 3 ranges if your willing that 1D doesnt always promise 4H, you will sometimes play 1H in a 43 fit with a 4-4 !S fit on the side (rarely cost IRL). Also 1C-1D-1S can be 3 cards if 3244,3235.
...
Basically you can play 1NT= 12-14 and 1C 15-20 bal or clubs and you will never play 2NT with less than 24 pts.

Or with my methods you can play that 1NT=15/16 (a 2-point range is better) and 1♣ is long, or balanced 12-20 excluding that 15/16, again never needing to go above 2NT, and you ALWAYS have 4+ hearts for a 1♦ reply, and never miss a spade fit.

If you really want to play a weak NT and miss those major fits when you are 12-14 then you could shuffle those ranges of mine around.

[OleBerg]

I played this (with weak NT):

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ = Balanced, 15+, not 4 hearts¹
1♠ = Natural forcing for a round.
1NT = Transfer to clubs, limited only by not opening 2♣²
2♣ = Transfer to diamonds, limited only by not opening 2♣³
2♦ = A good raise to 2♥, that is 15-16 and four-card-support. Or 3-card-support and a hand that will bid again on a sign-off.
2♥ = weak four-card raise.
2♠/3♣ = Mini-splinter, decent opener something like 13 good points or more.
2nt = 3♦-bid with at most 2 hearts
3♦ = 6+ diamonds, 3 hearts
3♥ = Weak ditributional hand with four-card support.

1: Responder bids 1♠ with 4 spades and 1nt to play facing 15-17. 2♣+ is your favourite checkback. With 15-17 opener bids 1nt/2♠ or pass. 18-19 bal bids 4-card-suits at the 2-level.
2: Avoids the fake reverses on doubleton diamonds or triple majors.
3: Allows responder to make genuine preference with 1-3, without having to pass. Advantagous both facing minimum reverses and stronger hands.

After the 1♥-response, principles are the same.

Playing this, it is possible to systematically respong on 4HCP and four cards in a major.

[OleBerg]

And a simple one for pick-up partnerships:

1♣ - 1♥

1♠ = Four card hearts. Simply continue as after 1♣ - 1♠, 1♥ in a natural system.
1NT = As usual
2♣ = As usual
2♦ = As usual
2♥ = Whatever. My suggestion would be: A good raise to 2♠
2♠+ = As usual

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ = Four diamonds. For simplicity.
1♠+ = Same principles as above.

The advantage of this would be simple agreements, some edge in the first sequence, a somewhat smaller edge in the second sequence, and maintaining the preemptive value of 1♣ - 1♠. Furthermore, the available bids made free at the two-level can be utilized as seen fit.

I think the first sequence would have some merit, especially at MP's, but I'm not certain it's worth the effort.

And you can call it "Revenge-transfer" og "Reverse-transfer" which both are kind of cool names.

[benlessard]

"It is in mine and normal methods - the range 12-14. I see no downsides."

This is because your 1D show pts if 1D can be 0 pts you want 2H to be around 18-20. But even playing normal methods its better to play 2H as a narrow range and 3H as almost forcing.
12-13 bal = 1H, 14 bal or unbal min = 2H, 15+ unbal or 18-19 bal =3H one of the quickest way i know to lose imps is to jump to 4H with a 18-19 bal.

I also play 2pts ranges.

1C-1D=1NT = 17-18 not 4H.
1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT = 15-16. (here 1S show at least 6 pts)

[fromageGB]

Yes, I can see that responding 1♦ on zero hcp puts a big risk on a 2♥ rebid, but surely if opps have 27hcp between them, it is unlikely you will get to be bidding 2♥.

Disagree that 3♥ is almost forcing; for me it is no more nor less than an informative balanced 17/18, and I do indeed bid 4♥ on a balanced 19/20. I'm a simple soul. Of course this is geared to responder having points, 5+hcp if only 4 hearts. If you do play 0 hcp for a reply then you may well need a lot of artificiality and a mixed 1♥ rebid.