[kenrexford]

 gszes, on 2014-October-08, 13:48, said:

FWIW

I would choose 3d for the reasons you mention above because I can then convert anything p bids to spades (even if it is 5s)
and they will know I have a slammish hand but need controls in the rounded suits. If p bids 3s hopefully we are playing
serious 3n so we can get a cue bidding sequence started.

This is not unreasonable. However, there is a reason to pick 3C. Opener can bid 3D by agreement as an acceptance of clubs. By doing so, Responder can then bid 3S as "I was just kidding about clubs."

3D doesn't work, because Opener needs 3H as natural with 5 in case Responder has, say, 5314 shape.

The 3S kidding bid would show a six-bagger, by the way, in this method. It is also used for long hearts.

[TylerE]

 rhm, on 2014-October-08, 05:36, said:

If you upgrade "good" 14s and this would increase your chances going down in 6NT please explain what was "good" about your 14 in the first place.

Because it gets you to way more making thin 3NT contracts than bad slams obv.

[mikeh]

 gszes, on 2014-October-08, 13:48, said:

FWIW

I would choose 3d for the reasons you mention above because I can then convert anything p bids to spades (even if it is 5s)
and they will know I have a slammish hand but need controls in the rounded suits. If p bids 3s hopefully we are playing
serious 3n so we can get a cue bidding sequence started.

It is a good rule of thumb to try to always use clubs as the fake bid, if at all possible. Sometimes it isn't, as in when partner bids or shows clubs, because you never fake primary support (you can fake preferences in some cases, but never primary support)

The reason is to allow opener to know that your diamond bids, when clubs could be fake, are real. In addition, when you always use clubs for the fake bid, it becomes ok for partner to cater to this as a matter of bridge logic without causing UI issues. Despite what Ken implied earlier about people coming around to his way of thinking, the notion that one can fake a club bid has been around since well before even I started playing, and that was more than 40 years ago. Faking a bid in order to get by this round has a very long, honourable ancestry to the point that no experienced player could claim to be surprised by it.

[lrussell]

I'm headed to 6NT not 6S.
If I play 1NT - 3S requires partner to cue Aces and Kings
I'll do that:

1NT - 3S - 4D - 4S signoff (we off 2 clubs)
1NT - 3S - 4C - 4D - 4S - Pass (we off 2 hearts)
1NT - 3S - 4C - 4D - 4H - 4NT - 5D (1 key card) - signoff in 5S
1NT - 3S - 4C - 4D - 4H - 4NT - 5H (2 key cards) - 6NT
1NT - 3S - 4C - 4D - 4H - 4NT - 5C (0/3 keys) - bid 5S
partner will convert to 6S with 3 keys and I will bid 6NT

If I play 1NT - 3S asks partner to cue Aces only (then Kings)
there is little point in bidding 3S as I can't construct an
auction that will keep me out of slam in all cases when off 2 tops.
I could try Gerber or some sort of sequence where 4NT is Black
however they might get a lead directing double in.
So the heck with it. In this case I just jump to 6NT.

[nige1]

 andrei, on 2014-October-07, 11:39, said:

partner opens 1N (15-17).

---

IMO

• 4♥ (Jacoby) followed by 4N (RKCB) = 10. Partner might be able to bid a grand..
• 4♣ (Gerber) = 9. Gerber is an under-rated gadget.
• 2♥ (Transfer) = 8.
• 6N = 7

[msjennifer]

 mikestar13, on 2014-October-08, 02:45, said:

My God, a hand where I think Gerber is the right bid if we are playing it!

If you do use Gerber and partner shows two Aces ,how do you propose to proceed further? Which denomination are you going to decide as your final contract?

[fourdad]

I am conflicted between xfer then RKC and blasting 6NT. If after RKC, pad shows 2, then 6NT, if not, 5S.
The blast is gambling that even if off 2 aces, they are not in one hand and there is still a good chance in play.

[kenrexford]

I am thinking. .. The torture auction is a transfer, followed by a manufactured 3C, and then Opener bidding 3H to show 5 hearts. That's good news that you don't want to hear.

[brettnj]

There are many 15-16 point hands on which the opps can get 2 heart tricks. Therefore, the only intelligent way to bid this hand is to transfer, and bid 3h as a Goldman Slam try.
If partner does not at some point cue bid the A-h, slam is marginal (although it will have the advantage of playing from partner's side, protecting the h-k, if he has it). This is also the only way to find if 7 spades has any play.

[mikeh]

 brettnj, on 2014-October-09, 08:55, said:

There are many 15-16 point hands on which the opps can get 2 heart tricks. Therefore, the only intelligent way to bid this hand is to transfer, and bid 3h as a Goldman Slam try.
If partner does not at some point cue bid the A-h, slam is marginal (although it will have the advantage of playing from partner's side, protecting the h-k, if he has it). This is also the only way to find if 7 spades has any play.

Always nice when you can announce to partner, when bidding 3♥, that it is a 'Goldman slam try'. Of course, there is a high likelihood that all that will produce is a blank look of incomprehension.

So assume you don't have a gadget that matches this hand or that you are not permitted to play adjective bridge...what do you do?

I think it pretty obvious that the OP didn't have a specialized gadget, else the problem would not have been a problem.

[kenrexford]

 mikeh, on 2014-October-09, 09:04, said:

Always nice when you can announce to partner, when bidding 3♥, that it is a 'Goldman slam try'. Of course, there is a high likelihood that all that will produce is a blank look of incomprehension.

So assume you don't have a gadget that matches this hand or that you are not permitted to play adjective bridge...what do you do?

I think it pretty obvious that the OP didn't have a specialized gadget, else the problem would not have been a problem.

LOL! I envy your first use of the term adjective bridge!

You and I definitely agree as to the parameters of the problem as posted and as to 3C as a practical solution. I am really curious as to how you cope with the unexpectedly interesting development of Opener introducing five hearts (if you also interpret 3H as natural with 5).

[mikeh]

 kenrexford, on 2014-October-09, 09:10, said:

LOL! I envy your first use of the term adjective bridge!

You and I definitely agree as to the parameters of the problem as posted and as to 3C as a practical solution. I am really curious as to how you cope with the unexpectedly interesting development of Opener introducing five hearts (if you also interpret 3H as natural with 5).

I wouldn't play 3♥ as showing 5.

In addition, the phrase adjective bridge has been around for decades. Indeed, in lighter moments (which, if memory serves, were probably alcohol fuelled...given that it was when I lived in residence at university) I have actually played a few hands of it, but it becomes boring very quickly. I suspect the phrase has been coined many times and I am not claiming any credit for it

[kenrexford]

 mikeh, on 2014-October-09, 09:21, said:

I wouldn't play 3♥ as showing 5.

That's how I handle Responder having 5-3 or 3-5 in the majors. He transfers to the 5 card major and then bids a 4 card minor or clubs if no 4 card minor. If Opener has 2-5 then the fit is found. There are obvious caveats to avoid bypassing 3NT.

[ilonka]

4♥ followed by 6sp

[PhilG007]

On the combined points,a slam is possible but it is ludicrous to bid a slam
until Aces have been checked on. This is a perfect hand for Gerber yet it only scored
17% of the vote. 4♥ as a transfer might work but there would have to be a prior agreement
about this. I think the best bid is 3♠ which is game forcing. If partner supports ♠then Blackwood
can follow. However,if the response is 3NT,its best to settle for that. Its possible a slam could be missed but
equally there is also the chance of two top losers. Sometimes you fail to land the fish,but at least you avoid
falling in the river (!)

[chasetb]

While I think 6NT is slightly better than 6♠, if WE can play 6♠ I bet it's a better contract than 6NT by partner, to protect those minor suit holdings. While I don't anymore use 3♠ as GF+, setting trump and demanding cuebids (the first one by opener having to promise an Ace), the 2 times it had come up for me in the past it gave me top boards for making slam by right-siding it.

[aguahombre]

 wanoff, on 2014-October-08, 03:12, said:

Unfortunately 4♣ is a transfer to ♥.

Andrei, the OP, mentions 4C is Gerber in his poll. So, perhaps you weren't his partner here.

Gerber is a good news/bad news thing here.

If LHO has a club holding worthy of a Double:

---Good news, you can identify it and with the simple tool for Opener of passing the Double unless he has a prime (which certainly every experienced pair has thought of by now) you are saved and just stop in 4S.

---Bad news, you use the tool above but the other table just blasted and didn't provide the leakage.

BTW, did the 80% sims assume the right guess of opening lead when we are off a cashable AK?

[mycroft]

[way, way offtopic]I ran a crazy bridge game (which I used to do at University) this weekend at one of our players' bar. One of the hands was "Adjective Bridge" (which I gave some leeway for things like "SATexas"). IIRC, it went:

"2 crappy ♦" ("ALERT" [we're playing EHAA as a base])
"One happy pass"
"one reluctant pass"
"one balancing double"
"relieved pass"
"2 forced ♥"
"confident X"
...-800. Partner had a minimum, not a crappy, opener (I expected Jxxxxx and a 3-count, she thought she had to stay in system)

[FrancesHinden]

 PhilG007, on 2014-October-09, 22:43, said:

On the combined points,a slam is possible but it is ludicrous to bid a slam
until Aces have been checked on.

It's not "ludicrous" to bid a slam without checking on aces. In fact I suspect that the odds favour responding 6NT rather than asking for aces first. It's quite easy to construct hands where you will make it, even having to knock out one of the missing aces. Suppose partner has something like xx KQx QJ10xx AKx . If they lead a spade or a diamond and the aces are split you've got a good chance of making.

[Jinksy]

 PhilG007, on 2014-October-09, 22:43, said:

On the combined points,a slam is possible but it is ludicrous to bid a slam
until Aces have been checked on. This is a perfect hand for Gerber yet it only scored
17% of the vote.

Bidding slam via Gerber virtually gives them the killer lead on a plate (even more so once you've cued a few times), whereas bidding 6N direct more or less guarantees they won't find it if their AK are split, and might well miss it if leader has neither.