[lxt08]

---

I and pd is first pd
we sys sayc
pd 3C, i ask pd use puppet? pd say no.
i bid 3S,pd 4s,play make.
opp find referee say i ask pd.
referee to we A+- N/A 40.00%.

[ArtK78]

No, you are not allowed to ask your partner what conventions you play in the middle of an auction.

[Zelandakh]

In competitive bridge you are not allowed to communicate with your partner about a hand other than through the calls you make and cards you play. Any additional information you get, through remarks, pauses, facial expressions, etc, is given a label (UI) and there are special rules for describing how to handle this. If you feel you have UI in competitive face to face bridge then call the referee (TD) to have them explain what this means.

That said, on beginners' nights it is often accepted that this will happen without penalty. My advice would be to avoid doing so even when you can - it is a skill you will need to learn on how to deal with auctions where you literally have no idea what is going on. That is something we have all experienced on occasion!

In online bridge you have a bit of a mixture between the two. Many think it is friendly to allow this kind of table talk while others frown upon it, especially as there are a few who use this to play bids as two-way, simply telling their partner which meaning it has this time around. It is probably best to check with opponents via a private message if you find yourself in such a situation, or alternatively you could create a table yourself and write something in the description to the effect that such informalities are allowed.

Finally, if you go to the front page and page down to the bottom you will find that there are 4 forums at the end dedicated to questions about rules and regulations. If you have further questions of this nature I would recommend posting there where specialists in this area can provide all the answers you might need together with references to where you can look up the rules yourself if interested. You might also find that this thread gets moved there if one of the mods notices it.

[diana_eva]

I noticed it, but wasn't sure where to move it. Probably BBO Tournament discussions, as this looks like an online tournament. I'll leave it to Barry or Ben, they're more experienced with moving and where each discussion belongs.

To answer the OP, assuming this was an online tournament it is not allowed to ask in the middle of the bidding. I think most tournaments disallow it, you can agree what system you play at the beginning of the round or load a CC. If it's an indy, TD should announce what the CC in use it. As for the ruling, and procedure I'll leave it to the TDs to address it. But in my non-qualified opinion opps should have called the TD immediately, not after the board was played. If they allowed the board to be played and THEN called the TD and asked for a penalty that doesn't sound right - particularly as I don't think they were damaged in any way.


Edit: Sorry for the brain fart. As Zel and the others explain below, there may be damage.

[Zelandakh]

diana_eva, on 2014-September-03, 06:40, said:

particularly as I don't think they were damaged in any way.

They were damagaed if 3NT would have scored worse than 4♠. Without the UI the auction might well have gone 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3NT, where 3♦ is meant as showing a 4 card major but interpreted as denying one. This is why I would suggest Simple Rulings - David and Ed and co can say what should have happened and why.

[Vampyr]

UI, by the way, is "unauthorised information", and if you see the initials AI in a discussion, this stands for "authorised information"' ie information you are allowed to use.

[barmar]

On the assumption that this was a BBO tourney, I've moved the thread.

[barmar]

This type of asking is sometimes allowed in friendly, informal games in the MBC. Players often sit down with little or no system discussion, and they work things out as they go along. But even then, you should ask about a convention BEFORE trying to use it, so the player bidding 3♣ would ask whether partner wants to play Puppet.

But since he mentioned calling the director, this must have been a tournament. Tournaments usually follow the rules more formally, and discussion during a hand is not permitted. Since you agreed SAYC, you should assume the conventions that are part of that. SAYC doesn't include Puppet Stayman.

[Cascade]

I am not sure what psychology is going on here but for some reason online some people think they can talk fairly freely to their partner during a hand. This is not restricted to asking about their methods and includes discussion of the previous board. Perhaps face to face there is always a break between hands but online the next hand pops up immediately the previous one finishes. The laws of bridge are clear that it is improper to communicate with your partner by any means other than your calls and plays. If you say anything else during a hand you open yourself up for criticism. I can understand a more relaxed approach in a friendly game but as soon as you play a tournament even if you are not taking it seriously others might be so you do need to play according to the rules.

As for this hand. There most certainly is damage. Without the question the pair might have missed their 4=4 spade fit. If they play 3NT they will almost certainly go down a bunch. That is damage.

A question and answer is UI. Therefore the players should avoid any call that is suggested by the unauthorised agreement to not play Puppet. So maybe the 3♠ bidder should have bid 3♦, thereafter it is difficult to find a spade fit.

It has occurred to me that it is not clear after 2NT 3♣; 3♦ what the responder should rebid. If he assumes they are playing Puppet, contrary to the UI, then there are auctions where they might fall on their feet (perhaps depending on any other (implicit) agreements).

Without that complication a better ruling that A+/- would be an assigned score of 3NT -2 (or whatever the result was likely to be).

[lxt08]

First Post
this use stayman
if use puppet

---

3D=have h/s4,4d=have h4 and s4
this not stopped at the 3NT.

[helene_t]

Cascade, on 2014-September-03, 14:58, said:

I am not sure what psychology is going on here but for some reason online some people think they can talk fairly freely to their partner during a hand.

Most online bridge is kitchen bridge, not club bridge: few regular partnerships, no td, no regulations, skill level is similar to the beginner's night at the club.

So you should compare it to IRL kitchen bridge. Except that IRL kitchen bridge is played with friends and relatives.

[Zelandakh]

lxt08, on 2014-September-03, 18:00, said:

this not stopped at the 3NT.

You misunderstand. You have to think about it that Responder thinks the bidding is normal Stayman while Opener thinks it is Puppet. So

2NT - 3♣;
3♦ - 3NT

where 3♦ shows 4 card major for Opener but denies a 4 card major for Responder. The UI made sure such a misunderstanding did not occur. This is a difficult area for newcomers to competitive bridge and I strongly recommend talking to a qualified TD about the correct procedure.

[Bbradley62]

helene_t, on 2014-September-04, 02:20, said:

Most online bridge is kitchen bridge, not club bridge: few regular partnerships, no td, no regulations, skill level is similar to the beginner's night at the club.

So you should compare it to IRL kitchen bridge. Except that IRL kitchen bridge is played with friends and relatives.

This is true for the MBC, but players should expect something more from online tournaments.

[lxt08]

Please do not think me and the partner will set about stops on 3NT.
i and my ​​partner are bridge experts.

[Zelandakh]

lxt08, on 2014-September-04, 08:22, said:

i and my ​​partner are bridge experts.

Bridge "experts" who may have been playing different systems before the verbal exchange. If Rodwell played with Fantoni and the former used Meckwell while the latter used Fantunes, do you think they would always reach the best contract?

[barmar]

helene_t, on 2014-September-04, 02:20, said:

Most online bridge is kitchen bridge, not club bridge: few regular partnerships, no td, no regulations, skill level is similar to the beginner's night at the club.

So you should compare it to IRL kitchen bridge. Except that IRL kitchen bridge is played with friends and relatives.

Skill level isn't an issue. When I've kibitzed experts who aren't regular partners, they often do what I mentioned earlier, deciding on agreements the first time they come up. For instance, the first time one of them bids Blackwood, one of them might ask 3014 or 1430. It's just a time-saver, so they don't spend lots of time before the game discussing agreements that might never even come up.

I think I've even seen this in JEC matches.

[Cascade]

Bbradley62, on 2014-September-04, 06:51, said:

This is true for the MBC, but players should expect something more from online tournaments.

Especially if others are paying money to play.