[whereagles]

 johnu, on 2014-August-13, 21:56, said:

4-4-3-2 and about 6-7 HCP could certainly be enough, for about -1100 or -1400 when partner has no sense of humor and makes a "good" sacrifice at the 5 or 6 level.

That was not the point. You can define the bid style as similar to

1. Michaels, 5-5 and <7 losers OR
2. Pre-balancing call ("obarbids", bergen style), 4-4 or better and starting from 9-10 HCP.

Opening poster was applying style 2, while his partner was expecting style 1.

[blackshoe]

Others (including OP's partner) have said they expect 5-5 in the minors for this bid. So would I. OTOH, I would bid 2NT with OP's hand. If partner wants to blame me if it doesn't work, that's fine with me, as long as he's not too much of a jerk about it.

[ayebee]

Most important here is to agree with your partner what the bid means!
How can he judge accurately the risk of a sacrifice if he thinks you're 5-5 and you're 5-4 or 4-5
For me though the hand looks better suited to defence with the spade A and the lack of top honours in both minor suits.
On the other hand if you don't go down a bundle occasionally you're not competing agressively enough, so clarify your agreements, stop blaming each other and move on.

[Trump Echo]

I think 5-5 is conventional without a partnership agreement saying otherwise

[PhantomSac]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-August-14, 03:07, said:

One other option that I thought was popular amongst BBF posters is for 2NT to show hearts and a minor, in effect a form of Michaels. I seem to recall someone posting here that that method was also becoming popular in expert circles, although I cannot remember who and have no idea if it is true. 2NT as minors only just feels wrong here somehow...

Def very popular among the top US players, don't know about Euros. The idea is basically that when you have hearts it's very important for partner to know that since you want to be able to bid 4H.

I do think if you play it as any 2 suits or minors it is way too rigid to play it as 5-5 always and had not heard of that, with the minors your idea is more to compete than to bid 5 of a minor. Certainly with something like xx xx AKxx AKxxx or xxx x KQJx AKxxx types of hand I would like to show the minors and not have partner think I'm always 5-5. But you should not have some ridiculous weak hand like the OP posted if you are 5-4. If you want to compete with 5-4 in the minors your hand/minors should be decent, like a hand where you'd want to overcall but you want to keep the other minor in play in case that's your fit.

Same with hands with 4 hearts and a longer minor if you play it as any 2 suits, if your hand is not suitable to double (stiff in the other minor for instance) I would rather bid 2N than 3 of my minor. So Axx KQxx x AJxxx or something is absolutely fine for 2N if you play it as any 2 suits imo. Of course often 4H 5m will have a double not a 2N bid.

[Winstonm]

The key issue here is the auction of 12-2S, as that puts the minor suit hand in the pre-balancing seat, so 2N does not have its usual meaning and does not suggest a sacrifice.

[whereagles]

well, how about

1♠-pass-2♠-??

Dbl = 3-suited or 2-suited take out with the reds (pulls a 3♣ response to 3♦), strength from 9-10 up.
2NT = 2-suited take out with minors or clubs/hearts, strength from 9-10 up.

[Zelandakh]

 whereagles, on 2014-August-16, 02:20, said:

Dbl = 3-suited or 2-suited take out with the reds (pulls a 3♣ response to 3♦), strength from 9-10 up.
2NT = 2-suited take out with minors or clubs/hearts, strength from 9-10 up.

If you are going to add a 2-suited hand into the double then I think Ken's scheme is the best way of doing that, since you also have the benefit of getting both suits into play immediately when you have hearts.

[PrecisionL]

 BillPatch, on 2014-August-13, 19:26, said:

I like this convention devised by Marty Bergen who named it "super unusual no trump." Unfortunately, as written on Bridgewinners.com recently, this is not ACBL compliant per the General Convention Chart. This prohibits Unusual No Trump Overcalls below 4NT unless one of the suits is specified. So, like the "Multi 2♦", it is barred from 98% of ACBL competition, including all ACBL games online.

To make 2NT unusual (not the 2-lowest) GCC compliant, the known suit is the non-touching suit, in this case Diamonds (♣ & ♥ touch ♠).

Note: See Steel Wheel's comment on page 1 of this forum.

[frisbee]

I have been known to cross out all 2-suited takeouts from my partners convention card (and mine) if s/he insists that it can include a 5422 shape. I will make allowances for 5431 with a maximum, but not with a shapeless 5422. Makes it very difficult to reach the correct contract (or to find the correct defense) when you cannot trust Partner to have the distribution that was promised.

[uday]

Quote

partner said I needed 5-5

There are too many auctions. You won't be able to cover them all with partner, in this lifetime or the next.

So you need general rules that can capture multiple auctions - this way you have some chance at knowing what partner has when a sequence comes up.

If you and pard are on completely different wavelengths, chances are that your results will suffer ( at least in the sense that your results will be more likely to be skewed from the norm )

What pard might have been saying is:

Look, there is no chance we can discuss every possible sequence under the sun. I'd like us to be on the same page about what a 2-suiter shows.
Without discussion, this would show at least 5-5, as far as I can tell from my understanding of the game. So let's not deviate from what 'standard' is, if you please, without explicit agreements to do so. If you'd rather, let's agree to play a style where it is ok to never quite be sure what pard has. This will increase volatility, after all, and some people think that increasing volatility is a good way to win more frequently.

I was surprised to see that so many people were willing to play this as 54 or 45. Presumably they're playing a pre-balancing style, bec. I can't imagine they'd spring (say) a Michaels overcall on partner with 4-5 or 5-4 in the majors. It isn't clear to me that a pre-balancing style is something one should unleash w/o discussion.

Anyway - to me the takeaway is: if you want to build a partnership with this pard, you need to figure out what undiscussed sequences should mean ( by picking a style, a general approach ). No point worrying about specific sequences except as they apply to the larger picture..

[Winstonm]

I also should have clarified that the pre-balance 5/4 bid I mentioned would only apply to matchpoint events. In a live auction like this at imps, the 2NT bid should be much less risky. But at matchpoints, the auction 1S-p-2S-P-P-P almost always means a poorish result, so the person with shorter spades should try to get involved if possible and if with a reasonable amount of safety.

[P_Marlowe]

2NT showes an arbitary 2-suiter.

With 4432 you have the option to double, and if you happen to have 3 cards
in their suit, I guess you have the option to pass, since partner will be
short in their suit, an will reopen. Hence I would expect at least 54.

If the bid occurred in the bal. seat, 44 is ok, but not in the prebal. seat.

You also need to take into account, that with the given seq. the 2NT is an
unpasssed hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mycroft]

I think if you expect that it's about to go p-p (and my partnership of note does, whether it will or not; we Balance In Direct Seat), then you're likely the one to have to operate, as you're the one with the short spades. At that point, I'd bid 2NT, too, hoping to survive. But partner knows I'm Just Competing, "balancing" if you will; and shouldn't hang me.

You lose in these cases under this restriction when in fact you do have game because it's 4-1 or 4-0 and there's few losers; you lose in the "suggest a sac over *game*" with this strategy (whereas you get a headstart on the "suggest a sac over the partscore"); and you really lose if partner expects a "real" 2NT call (or a "real" 3suit call or whatever).

So I guess I'm agreeing with the world that is saying "do what your partner expects you to do, whatever that is."

[aguahombre]

When a major suit has been bid and raised, the one in pre-balance can certainly Double with 4 of other major, but doesn't really need to bid 2NT with 4-4 or 5-4 minors. It doesn't really matter whether he is the "one short" (say 2) in their major.

The person in the real balancing seat knows who has trump shortness and knows if they have an 8-fit, we also rate to have an 8-fit. That person is the one who can balance 2N with 4-4 minors or 5-4 minors, not the other guy.