[dickiegera]

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What is best bid now?




Also is this enough for reverse?

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Thank you

[wank]

3s and no it's not good enough. i would have opened 1nt to save myself a tricky problem.

[MrAce]

1-3♠

2- Not for me, I would have rebid 2♣ but I like opening 1 NT more.

[Lord Molyb]

1- 2♠ is forcing in my system but I bid 3♠ anyway.
2- No, open 1NT.

Did you end up in the poor 6♠?

[dickiegera]

Lord Molyb, on 2014-April-20, 08:47, said:

1- 2♠ is forcing in my system but I bid 3♠ anyway.
2- No, open 1NT.

Did you end up in the poor 6♠?

No a poor 2♠ making 5 for a ZERO. At other tables a few North's overcalled 1 Heart and that keep people from some problems.

One pair made 7NT bidding 3NT. I am guess no Heart overcall or a heart was still lead OR the defender with 3 clubs pitched a club

[mikeh]

2♠ is a forcing rebid in any normal method.
Edit: in NA, anyway

[whereagles]

Reverse is normal. Now 3♠, which is more descriptive than 2♠ (2♠ is forcing in most systems, but I wouldn't try it on a random).

[johnu]

Can someone explain the fascination with reversing on a random 16 count without a partial fit for spades?

[jallerton]

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 10:53, said:

2♠ is a forcing rebid in any normal method.

I disagree. It's quite common to play it as forcing, but a lot of people play it as NF also and it is quite playable to do so. For example, not everybody plays weak jump shifts. If you don't, what would you bid with a 6232 5-count here?

[whereagles]

johnu, on 2014-April-20, 12:24, said:

Can someone explain the fascination with reversing on a random 16 count without a partial fit for spades?

I reverse on any 15-count for the following reason: accurately sort out intermediate or better two-suited hands (15+) from minimum ones (11-14).

This is not mainstream, and indeed it will lead to some overbidding occasionally, but I firmly this approach stands more to win than lose on the long run.

[Trinidad]

A strong 1NT, traditionally shows the same minimum HCPs as a reverse. A 1NT opening shows the medium opening hands. This used to be 16-18 and a reverse used to be 16+. If a hand was strong enough to open 1NT and you would move a card from the doubleton to the four card suit to change a 2434 into a 1435, it was strong enough to reverse.

This has changed a little bit over the years.. Strong 1NT openings are getting weaker.. because minimum openings are getting weaker, and with people opening 11 point balanced hands, strong 1NT openings are now a good 14 to a bad 17.

Now two styles of reverses have developed. One style has lowered the requirements for a reverse to follow the trend of the 1NT openings. In this style a 2♠ rebid by responder is not forcing. West seems to play this style. East clearly thinks it is forcing and seems to think that a reverse shows more.

The other style led to increased requirements for a reverse. The followers of this style continuously hit the problem with reversing patterns that are just not strong enough to reverse. I am one of the followers of this style. Many of the 5422 hands where the long suit is (just) below the four card suit are fine for a 1NT opening. But 5431 hands are not fine, not even with a singleton king.

If my partner would open the West hand with 1NT, I would drive straight to 6♠ with the East hand. If West would open 1♣, and reverse into hearts, I would be warned that partner has no fit for spades and we would stay out of the poor slam.

Rik

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 10:53, said:

2♠ is a forcing rebid in any normal method.

I've seen that too in the published treatments for reverses.

However, it seems like 2S could be used for a weak, NF 5+ ♠ because you have:

3S = GF and
2NT!( Lebensohl, forcing 3C ) , then 3S for invitational .

[mikeh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-April-20, 17:16, said:

I've seen that too in the published treatments for reverses.

However, it seems like 2S could be used for a weak, NF 5+ ♠ because you have:

3S = GF and
2NT!( Lebensohl, forcing 3C ) , then 3S for invitational .

I can't imagine voluntarily consuming bidding space by having to bid 3♠ forcing with 5+ spades. To me, when you consume your own bidding space in an uncontested power auction, you should show very specific holdings. So for me, 3♠ would be 6+, good suit, slam interest, which is actually a pretty good description of the OP hand (of course, I don't consider opener to have a reverse).

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 17:55, said:

. So for me, 3♠ would be 6+, good suit, slam interest, which is actually a pretty good description of the OP hand (of course, I don't consider opener to have a reverse).

I agree, it is actually a "textbook" example imo.

[steve2005]

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 19:55, said:

. So for me, 3♠ would be 6+, good suit, slam interest, which is actually a pretty good description of the OP hand (of course, I don't consider opener to have a reverse).

MrAce, on 2014-April-20, 18:12, said:

I agree, it is actually a "textbook" example imo.

I agree too, if partner has a real reverse you have to let him know that 6♠ might be the spot

[the hog]

3S and "No", not good enough for a reverse.

[straube]

There are many different partnership understandings for continuations after a reverse. Most play that 1C-1S, 2H-2S is forcing for a round and shows 5+ spades. They also likely play that 1C-1S, 2H-3S is GF with a good enough 6-cd suit that opener may decide to raise with a stiff honor; the 3S bid should emphasize the suit but not promise slam interest. There are three main routes to 3S after 1C-1S, 2H...starting with 2S, 2N or rebidding 3S and most would play these as weak, invitational and game forcing respectively, but some partnerships could switch the meanings around....for example game forcing (e.g. 1C-1S, 2H-2S, 3C-3S), weak, and invitational.

A minority play that 1C-1S, 2H-2S is nf. 2N is a second weakness signal and the fourth suit can be used to check on a 5-3 fit. This style has added attractiveness for passed hands.

A few play that 1C-1S, 2H-2S is a weakness signal and can be five spades but is usually only four. With five spades and a hand that can force game, responder rebids 2N. Even after 1C-1S, 2H-2S a 5-3 fit can be found when opener is strong enough to pattern out with 3S so 5-3 fits are not necessarily lost but obviously some are. Players of this style prefer it because after 1C-1S, 2H if 2S promises 5 but no additional strength, then either partner may have an awkward time establishing a force. There is also a lot of economy in making 2S the weakness signal, including the ability to stop in 2N. Say responder has Kxxx Qxx Jxxxx x. Using 2N as the weakness signal may result in an ugly guess as to which part score is best.

The hand isn't strong enough for a reverse. One explanation is that after 1C-1S, 2H-2S (natural and forcing) the rebid would be 2N. If you add the 16 hcps here with partner's expected 5 or 6 hcps, you get 21 or 22 which falls short of the 23 hcp minimum that you should keep for 2N contracts.

[whereagles]

straube, on 2014-April-20, 23:57, said:

The hand isn't strong enough for a reverse. One explanation is that after 1C-1S, 2H-2S (natural and forcing) the rebid would be 2N. If you add the 16 hcps here with partner's expected 5 or 6 hcps, you get 21 or 22 which falls short of the 23 hcp minimum that you should keep for 2N contracts.

I ran a quick simulation on the weak reverse style (15+). Odds of a combined 22 or less HCP are approximately 19%, assuming responder bids with any 5-count. (Standard deviation ~1%.)

Basically you overbid to 2NT at most 1 time out of 5. However most post-reverse systems don't allow stopping in 2NT, so it's not clear how serious this is.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 17:55, said:

I can't imagine voluntarily consuming bidding space by having to bid 3♠ forcing with 5+ spades. To me, when you consume your own bidding space in an uncontested power auction, you should show very specific holdings. So for me, 3♠ would be 6+, good suit, slam interest, which is actually a pretty good description of the OP hand (of course, I don't consider opener to have a reverse).

I agree now that 3S should be 6+ .

Perhaps 3D! ( 4th suit ) could be "telling" about 5 cards ♠ as straube suggested ( post # 17 ) .

[kenberg]

Wiht the West hand, I think that I would start with 1♣ and then, over 1♠, rebid 2♣. Certainly I could have a lot less and bid that way, and I also would like to have a sixth club to bid that way. But stiff kings are not necessarily worth a lot in the play, so I think I would just trust that if we belong in game partner will probably take another call over my 2♣.

Now to the East hand, after 1♣-1♠-2♥. I think that, with anyone I have discussed reverses, 2♠ is forcing, shows 5+, and is non-committal about strength. This has 6, a very good 6, and a lot of strength. I guess I would try 3♠ but I can't say I have ever discussed it. I would be a little worried that the hand belongs in 6♣.My club holding is just three spots but on the auction partner could well have AKQxx and maybe AKQxxx. Of course, afaik after partner bids 2♥, the hands do not seem to be fitting all that well.

So: After 1♣-1♠-2♥-3♠ I think opener would expect that I, the responder, am showing good values and good spades. That seems clear enough. Whether we can then get to 6♣ when it is right, or stay out of 6♠ when it is wrong, is less clear to me. (No slam is right with the actual hands). I, if I were West, would have a somewhat stronger hand to bid 2♥ and then a slam might be right. Or not.

I regard the hands as difficult to bid, unless it goes 1♣-1♠-2♣-3♠(invit)-4♠. But E/W should start by getting it straight whether, for them, 2♠ is or is not passable. Probably they have already agreed with that part of the assessment.

Added: Another issue for agreement: Perhaps after 1♣-1♠-2♣ you see the East hand as worth a force to game. Not unreasonable. In that case, I would bid 2♦ over 2♣, and then bid 3♠ at my next turn. This, imo, shows the same general sort of hand as the immediate 3♠ over 2♣ except that the immediate call is invitational while going through 2♦ first is forcing.

Partly the OP was trapped by lack of agreements, common when playing on bbo.