[Hanoi5]

Yesterday I had this sequence:

---

South had opened with a very weak hand and 6-4 in the round suits. Of course 3♥ was meant to be passed but North took it as forward going.

I think you can play both ways (bidding over an invitation accepts it or just tries to get to a better contract). I think in general it is better to pass an invitation if you won't accept it and treat any other bid over it as a description of the hand to try and get to a better contract. Can it be always applied? I suppose not, but would you take this sequence as an exception?

[Endymion77]

If he has a weak 6-4 hand, he should rebid hearts before introducing clubs. What's North's hand?

[ggwhiz]

The only reason to bid 3nt here is a doubleton heart honor that can count a likely 9 tricks if the suit runs. Even then 4♥ is most often better but bidding with a stiff heart is common and absolutely terrible.

As above it is more common to bid h-h-c to show the bad 6-4 and this way to show a decent one.

[Zelandakh]

3♥ is forcing, searching for the best strain. If a pair is not comfortable with this in the auction given, they might consider playing non-GF 4th suit forcing in combination with a little artificiality but I doubt it is worth it.

[mikeh]

It may have gone out of fashion in some circles, but the traditional way for opener to distinguish good 6-4 hands from weak ones was to bid 1♥ then 2♥ with the weak ones and then to bid 3m over 2N, which is pass or correct, and 3N is NOT an option for responder regardless of his hand.

With a hand that is good enough to accept the invitation shown by 2N, opener bids the major, then the minor, then the major, as he did on this hand. Now, not only is 3N permissible, but a pass of 3♥ is not: opener has forced to game and the issue is 4M or 3N.

There is a way to modify this, but only if opener's second suit is not clubs.

In some of my partnerships, we play transfers over responder's 2N rebid.


This doesn't work for clubs as the 2nd suit, since we can't transfer to 3♣

It works for 5-5 and 6-4 and other 2 suited shapes.

Open 1M. Partner bids 1N or 1♠, we bid a second suit lower than the first, but not clubs (thus if we open 1♠, we can bid 2 red, but if we open 1♥ the gadget only applies if we bid 2♦).

Responder bids 2N. Now we can transfer into our 6 card major and pass, with weakness, or bid, with gf, including 3N, offering a choice of contracts.

if we transfer into our 2nd suit, we show at least 5-5 and responder bids accordingly. Again, we pass responder's choice (which has to be one of our suits) with weakness and bid again with strength.

Sorry for the thread-jack

[Stephen Tu]

You can probably work something out even if 2nd suit is clubs. e.g.:

1h-1s-2c-2nt:
3c = weak 5+-5+, choice of partials
3h = forcing, choice of games
3s = forcing, extras (min raises to 2s directly)
3d = forces 3h then:
- pass to signoff
- 3s/3nt can be strong 5/5, stiff d/stiff s or something like that.

[Zelandakh]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-20, 01:04, said:

You can probably work something out even if 2nd suit is clubs. e.g.:

Why not stick with the transfers to keep things more consistent?

1h-1s-2c-2nt:
3c = weak 5+-5+, choice of partials
3♦ = 6+ hearts
3h = 3 spades (3514/3505)
3s = forcing, 5+ clubs

I am guessing Mike already plays something along these lines; it is just that this does not distinguish between weak 5-5 and 6-4 hands (at least not with the possibility to play in 3♣).

[gszes]

distribution alone should not dictate a bidding sequence honor concentration
and power also help. We open 1h with the following hands and what do we
rebid over 1s

x AKQxxx xx Qxxx
x AQxxxx xx KQxx
x KJxxxx xx AQJx
x Qxxxxx xx AKQx

hand 1 seems an easy enough 2h bid and over 2N is 3c reasonable hoping
for Axxx xx Axx Kxxx a sort of miracle hand???

hand 2 may be a 2h rebid but surely a 2c rebid looks better than hand 1
hand 3 2h looks pretty weak and 2c looks even better
hand 4 2h seems ridiculous and 2c outstanding

the point being is the wide range of hcp concentration makes any set rule
seem wrong-----it seems to me that the best we can hope for is the understanding
that if opener rebids 2h and later shows minor they are showing a good heart suit
and weakfish minor looking for a great fitting hand from p and if opener chooses a
minor rebid followed by 3h it shows a weakish major and better minor and the
obvious need for a couple of trump honors from responder to make game a
reasonable idea.

[PhilG007]

Hanoi5, on 2013-September-19, 10:07, said:

Yesterday I had this sequence:

---

South had opened with a very weak hand and 6-4 in the round suits. Of course 3♥ was meant to be passed but North took it as forward going.

I think you can play both ways (bidding over an invitation accepts it or just tries to get to a better contract). I think in general it is better to pass an invitation if you won't accept it and treat any other bid over it as a description of the hand to try and get to a better contract. Can it be always applied? I suppose not, but would you take this sequence as an exception?

South has bid 2 suits yet North has rejected both of them. Hands that don't fit in a suit,don't fit in
NTs either. South should bid 4♥ a bid says loud and clear "NTs not safe pass and let me play in my suit."
4♥ is not ideal either but it's the lesser evil.