[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2013-April-24, 08:47, said:

Many people (myself included) don't even make the inverted raise game forcing by unpassed hands. We play it as invitational or better, so it's a one-round force.

And by a passed hand, it's merely invitational, so it's not even forcing.

We can pass an inverted raise by a passed hand, also. But, I wonder if we will ever have a hand which, although we have passed originally, we now evaluate as worthy of game opposite a 1m opening bid.

[barmar]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-24, 08:51, said:

I wonder if we will ever have a hand which, although we have passed originally, we now evaluated as worth of game opposite a 1m opening bid.

I've seen this happen with a major (in fact, with my regular partner we use Jacoby 2NT by passed hand to show this, since we don't play Drury). It seems like it would be pretty hard to construct a minor hand like this, though. Even a good weak 2 in the minor (we used 2♦ for something else, so can't open that) doesn't seem like it would be enough to force to game.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2013-April-24, 08:47, said:

Many people (myself included) don't even make the inverted raise game forcing by unpassed hands. We play it as invitational or better, so it's a one-round force.

Yes, I do this too, and I am aware that it is the mainstream treatment. But playing it as game forcing was mentioned in the thread.

[ggwhiz]

Vampyr, on 2013-April-24, 08:57, said:

But playing it as game forcing was mentioned in the thread.

ONLY by an unpassed hand.

[ArtK78]

It is not uncommon for players to play a single raise of a minor suit opening as game forcing. That is done in connection with some other call (usually a jump shift in the other minor) which is used as an invitational raise.

And, as said above, the game forcing single raise is only by an unpassed hand (for obvious reasons).

If one does not have an invitational raise available, then the single raise of a minor suit opening is likely to be invitational or better (or just invitational by a passed hand).

[blackshoe]

There's a bazillion different ways to play minor suit raises. Here's one I like:

By an unpassed hand:

2m: 5+ trumps, denies a 4 card major, FG
1♣-2♦ or 1♦-2♥: limit raise in opener's minor, 5+ trumps, denies a 4 card major, forcing to 3 of the minor (F3m)
3m: 0-5 HCP (about), 5+ trumps, no 4 card major, preemptive.

By a passed hand or after interference:

2m: 6-9 HCP (about), 5+ trumps, no 4 card major, NF. The other two raises remain in place by a passed hand, but the JS limit raise is not used after interference (cue bid or redouble and then raise).

[CamHenry]

blackshoe, on 2013-April-25, 00:21, said:

By an unpassed hand:

2m: 5+ trumps, denies a 4 card major, FG
1♣-2♦ or 1♦-2♥: limit raise in opener's minor, 5+ trumps, denies a 4 card major, forcing to 3 of the minor (F3m)
3m: 0-5 HCP (about), 5+ trumps, no 4 card major, preemptive.

Out of interest, what would a 2NT response mean? I've played:
2m: limit raise, F3m, denies 4cM
2N: GF raise
3m: preemptive

The advantage here is that you have more discernment in your limit raise auctions, and you can show stoppers up the line after 1m-2N (especially useful at MPs)

[Vampyr]

ggwhiz, on 2013-April-24, 09:57, said:

ONLY by an unpassed hand.

I am starting to wonder what was incomprehensible about my previous post.

What I was trying and apparently failing to say was that if you play your single raise GF and something else as invitational, you would do better as a passed hand to use the single raise as invitational and use the other bids (criss-cross or whatever) as something more useful. That is all.

[Vampyr]

CamHenry, on 2013-April-25, 02:12, said:

Out of interest, what would a 2NT response mean? I've played:
2m: limit raise, F3m, denies 4cM
2N: GF raise
3m: preemptive

The advantage here is that you have more discernment in your limit raise auctions, and you can show stoppers up the line after 1m-2N (especially useful at MPs)

I use:
2m: limit raise or better
2N: very weak raise
3m: preemptive

[blackshoe]

CamHenry, on 2013-April-25, 02:12, said:

Out of interest, what would a 2NT response mean? I've played:
2m: limit raise, F3m, denies 4cM
2N: GF raise
3m: preemptive

The advantage here is that you have more discernment in your limit raise auctions, and you can show stoppers up the line after 1m-2N (especially useful at MPs)

1m-2NT is balanced, no 4 card M, 11-12 HCP.
1m-1NT is balanced, no 4 card M, 6-10 HCP.
1m-3NT is balanced, no 4 card M, 13-15 HCP.

I've not played your method, but it looks interesting.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2013-April-25, 06:26, said:

I use:
2m: limit raise or better
2N: very weak raise
3m: preemptive

I guess that is why I don't use "preemptive" when describing anything. You have a distinction between a very weak raise and preemptive. Do your opponents understand the difference?

Am sure one of those is used as a "mixed" raise in reality. I don't use that term either, when disclosing a raise which is somewhere in between invitational and crap.

[mike777]

i don't really know inv minors but based on this thread you guys don't know

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2013-April-25, 23:51, said:

i don't really know inv minors but based on this thread you guys don't know

If you are referring to the use of the term, I agree that we guys disagree. The only things important are that the two guys across from each other are on the same page, and that they are able to disclose how they play the raises.

This thread is just a sharing of ideas.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2013-April-25, 23:51, said:

i don't really know inv minors but based on this thread you guys don't know

There are several equally valid ways to play inverted minors, often which is best depends on the rest of your system.