[32519]

On this issue I've thrown my toys out of the cot more than once whenever partner, as the weaker hand, takes control of the auction. Inevitably we end up one level too high, sometimes two.

So my question is simple: When is the weaker hand allowed to take control of the auction?

[Stephen Tu]

32519, on 2013-April-10, 22:28, said:

On this issue I've thrown my toys out of the cot more than once whenever partner, as the weaker hand, takes control of the auction. Inevitably we end up one level too high, sometimes two.

So my question is simple: When is the weaker hand allowed to take control of the auction?

It's after the stronger hand has limited its strength and distribution in some fashion. Most often happens after opener has shown a balanced hand of some point range, the weaker hand in most systems now is in control since it has a better idea of the total combined assets. So after 1nt/2nt openings and rebids. One cedes control if you had it, anytime you make a non-forcing, limited call.

Sometimes neither hand is really in "control", since each is just describing itself to the other.

Maybe you should post some auctions to see where they went wrong. In the situation you describe, I think most often the problem is after strong 2c auctions, typically the weaker hand should just show/deny fit and make control showing bids, wresting captaincy via some sort of ace-asking call often screws things up since tricks can't be counted accurately. But maybe you have something else in mind, which may or may not actually be an issue of wrongly taking captaincy. Maybe it is just poor hand evaluation, or poor choice of calls.

[Zelandakh]

In my view, if one hand is known and the other unknown, it is right for the unknown hand to take control regardless of strength unless the unknown hand can conveniently pass control back while indicating the range, typically slam interest. I assume this goes back to your dislike of natural 2NT openings? That partner gets you too high in such situations is a matter of hand evaluation, not of it being a problem for the weak hand to start slam investigations.

[Trinidad]

More than half of the time the weaker hand will be in control of the auction.

It is easy to reason that out. In an uncontested auction the description of the hands starts with opener. Responder will know more about opener's hand than opener knows about responder's hand. That is why beginner books already tell that responder is the captain. This captain will -on balance- be weaker than opener. After all, opener has shown above average honor strength, making the captain most of the time the weaker hand.

Rik

[gnasher]

32519, on 2013-April-10, 22:28, said:

When is the weaker hand allowed to take control of the auction?

Whenever he judges that it's the right thing to do.

[fromageGB]

All of the above points to the same thing: one hand has described itself, so that partner knows its distribution and strength. Partner takes control. Sometimes you have a situation when both sides show extras and then one hand is in a situation to invite the other to continue, but this is not common. You should not get to a situation where both hands are undescribed, so that there is a fight over control.

[broze]

Saw the title of this topic and immediately knew exactly who the OP would be. I'm officially initiated.

[aguahombre]

Any time he passes.

[ArtK78]

Once a fit is found, it is usually the more distributional hand that can figure out exactly what cards are needed to make game or slam. When the distributional hand is the "weaker" hand, the weaker hand should take control.

[Trinidad]

ArtK78, on 2013-April-11, 15:10, said:

Once a fit is found, it is usually the more distributional hand that can figure out exactly what cards are needed to make game or slam. When the distributional hand is the "weaker" hand, the weaker hand should take control.

IMO, it's the exact opposite. The distributional hand shows the distribution and the more balanced partner evaluates whether the honors fit well. The reason: It's much easier to show distribution than honor location, and often you have already shown part of the distribution in the early part of the auction - before the fit was found.

Even if the fit is found immediately, the priority is to show the fit and the distribution: splinters for shortness, Jacoby 2NT for relatively balanced hands and 2/1 + supporting to emphasize length.

Rik

[MrAce]

32519, on 2013-April-10, 22:28, said:

On this issue I've thrown my toys out of the cot more than once whenever partner, as the weaker hand, takes control of the auction. Inevitably we end up one level too high, sometimes two.

So my question is simple: When is the weaker hand allowed to take control of the auction?

It is hard to draw a line or list situations where weaker hand should take control.

Assuming that you are talking about HCP strength to determine the weak and the strong hand, first thing comes to my mind is, when the stronger hand makes a limit bid, it is often the weaker hand that takes control.

1♦--1♥
3♥ -- (1h bidder may have weaker hand but will definetely take control)

1♦--1♥
2NT


1♦--1♠
2♥-3 red suit
3NT--4 something (in this auction who takes control may very but it is not unusual for weaker hand to take control after 3NT and move forward)

1NT--2♥
3♠--

1♣--1♠
3♣--4♣ (if played as forcing and asking pd to cue, ready to take control, depending on what opener cues may stop in game , may bid slam, may ask keycards, may continie cueing, may work for grandslam )

[jogs]

Trinidad, on 2013-April-11, 15:36, said:

IMO, it's the exact opposite. The distributional hand shows the distribution and the more balanced partner evaluates whether the honors fit well. The reason: It's much easier to show distribution than honor location, and often you have already shown part of the distribution in the early part of the auction - before the fit was found.


Rik

I don't believe that's true. Look at this auction.

1♥ - p - 2♥ - p
p - 2♠

Neither partner has had an opportunity to show shortness.

Who should decide whether to double or compete with 3♥?

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2013-April-11, 17:09, said:

1♥ - p - 2♥ - p
p - 2♠

Neither partner has had an opportunity to show shortness.

Who should decide whether to double or compete with 3♥?

IMO, only responder. But, in my world he hasn't shown 4 hearts necessarily, and opener has denied six of them. Others would allow opener to bid again with (say) a weak 1-5-(52) hand, but we have found that less than successful. Think about the hands the guy might have to pass 1H and then balance 2S.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-11, 17:27, said:

IMO, only responder. But, in my world he hasn't shown 4 hearts necessarily, and opener has denied six of them. Others would allow opener to bid again with (say) a weak 1-5-(52) hand, but we have found that less than successful. Think about the hands the guy might have to pass 1H and then balance 2S.

When did opener deny 6 hearts in this example ? Shall we bid 3♥ with 6 just because we have 9 card fit, regardless of what we hold in spade suit ?

[Zelandakh]

jogs, on 2013-April-11, 17:09, said:

Who should decide whether to double or compete with 3♥?

The one with extra offence/defence...but what has this to do with taking control?

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2013-April-12, 01:49, said:

When did opener deny 6 hearts in this example ? Shall we bid 3♥ with 6 just because we have 9 card fit, regardless of what we hold in spade suit ?

1H-2H
?.....If the question were "Do you...", rather than "Shall we..." --the answer would be yes.

[jogs]

Zelandakh, on 2013-April-12, 03:13, said:

The one with extra offence/defence...but what has this to do with taking control?

It's all semantics. Isn't the one making the final
decision taking control?
Agree with 'the one with extra offence/defence'.
Now we need to discuss what constitutes extra
offense/defense.
3/2 decisions. Think we should err on the side
of bidding. 5431 for opener is enough for ODR.
For responder a side suit doubleton may be enough.

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2013-April-12, 09:15, said:

It's all semantics. Isn't the one making the final
decision taking control?
Agree with 'the one with extra offence/defence'.
Now we need to discuss what constitutes extra
offense/defense.
3/2 decisions. Think we should err on the side
of bidding. 5431 for opener is enough for ODR.
For responder a side suit doubleton may be enough.

Good points. I just have this thing about Opener doing whatever earlier and not having any options at all in this scenario. Responder otherwise has to consider whether to double 2S just to shut opener up, when he is content to let them play but short of real penalty.

[barmar]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-12, 07:53, said:

1H-2H
?.....If the question were "Do you...", rather than "Shall we..." --the answer would be yes.

That's a matter of partnership agreement. If you play 1-2-3-stop, opener normally bids 3 whenever he has an extra trump. But if you play that this is invitational, you can't.

This thread is looking for general guidelines, obviously there will be variations depending on particular partnership needs.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2013-April-12, 09:37, said:

That's a matter of partnership agreement. If you play 1-2-3-stop, opener normally bids 3 whenever he has an extra trump. But if you play that this is invitational, you can't.

This thread is looking for general guidelines, obviously there will be variations depending on particular partnership needs.

Yep. Hence my careful answer of Mr. Ace' question.