[VixTD]

I'm grateful for all the replies, but most of them (especially the ones you call "easy solutions") won't work because my partner doesn't do "science" at bridge. I thought if I could use an otherwise useless bid to agree partner's suit but keep everything else more or less standard I might have a chance, and three-of-the-other-major might just fit this after Stayman.

I agree that splinters are useful as second round bids in these sequences, but hands with no shortage are more common, and if we use a jump bid on the second round as a splinter we need a way to make a forcing bid on those hands.

Here are my ideas so far:

After 1NT - Stayman - 2M: use 3oM as GF agreement, new suit as natural (F), jump bids in new suits as splinters.

After 1NT - transfer - 2 agreed M: use new suit as natural, jump in new suit as splinter, raise to three of the major as natural and GF*.

*I got this last idea from Paul Hackett, who said that this is not very useful as an invitational bid - you should just decide and pass or bid game if you're borderline. (He was giving a seminar on teams play, so we may be undoing ourselves by adopting this in the pairs game.)

After 2NT - Stayman - 3M: use 3(or4)oM as GF agreement, new suits as splinters.

After 2NT - transfer - 3 agreed M: the only solution I can think of involves making lots of otherwise natural-looking bids forcing to 4NT or 5M, which my partner won't cope with.

I agree that Texas transfers would solve a lot of problems where responder wants to play in that suit regardless of partner's holding. I might just manage to get that one on the card.

Thanks again.

[aguahombre]

Regardless, what I observe is someone who posts/asks a question because he wants answers from which he can choose. That is a good thing, and not always the case on BBF.

[Zelandakh]

 VixTD, on 2013-February-21, 09:17, said:

After 2NT - transfer - 3 agreed M: the only solution I can think of involves making lots of otherwise natural-looking bids forcing to 4NT or 5M, which my partner won't cope with.

This one actually works just the way you want it to. After 2NT - 3♥; 3♠, you can play 4m as natural (second suit) and 4♥ as a slam try in spades. You do lose the cue bids but you did not have those anyway if you were playing 4m as natural. 4♥ to show hearts is not needed since with 5-5 majors you would transfer to hearts first.

Speaking of which, to make this also work for hearts you need to add some sort of science to handle the 5-5 major hand mentioned above. The one way is transfers, as mentioned in my first "simple" post. Another option is to play a Texas-style extension where 2NT - 4♣ simply shows 5-5 majors. This not only handles the hand type but also has the key advantage of stopping partner from ever being able to use Gerber. If you do this then 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠ can be used as a slam try in hearts.

The above assumes that you are playing simple Stayman (not Puppet) and can therefore handle all of the 5-4 major hands that way.

[PhilKing]

 GHS_K_Chow, on 2013-February-21, 09:06, said:

Out of curiosity, any thought to putting the 6 card heart invite into 2S and/or swapping the meanings of 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ and 1N - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ - something - 3♥?

Yep. It's pretty standard in some English circles to play the Two Spade then Three Heart sequence to show the invitational six-card suit (transfer and raise forcing, hoverver Fido does it).

There is an obvious reason from an information leakage POV to do it this way: over Two Spades opener just jumps to 4♥ with any max with three hearts without any faffing. This way responder does not have to tip their shape before the lead. If 2♠ could conceal a slam try, you could not do this.

[Zelandakh]

Phil, that does not work in my structure because of the club transfer component. Responder can have a slammy hand even if they do not have the one-suiter. I assume "Fido" do not play second round transfers here, or if they do then they are able to use the 2NT rebid for clubs.

[PhilKing]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-21, 10:52, said:

Phil, that does not work in my structure because of the club transfer component. Responder can have a slammy hand even if they do not have the one-suiter. I assume "Fido" do not play second round transfers here, or if they do then they are able to use the 2NT rebid for clubs.

Ah, OK. I got one other component of your structure wrong as well. I was reading the 3m via 2S auctions as inv, which they are not.

[Zelandakh]

 PhilKing, on 2013-February-21, 11:39, said:

Ah, OK. I got one other component of your structure wrong as well. I was reading the 3m via 2S auctions as inv, which they are not.

Yeah, if you can handle the 5♥4♠ invitational hand another way, such as via 2♣, then 2♠ as a general invite is better. Unfortunately I cannot do that (due to switching to Puppet) so I need the 3 sequences 1NT - 2NT... 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT... and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT to handle all of the "both major" invites, 5♠4♥, 5♥4♠ and 4♥4♠ respectively. When I was playing normal Stayman I used a different transfer structure but it is long enough ago that I cannot remember it 100%.

[GHS_K_Chow]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-22, 04:06, said:

Yeah, if you can handle the 5♥4♠ invitational hand another way, such as via 2♣, then 2♠ as a general invite is better. Unfortunately I cannot do that (due to switching to Puppet) so I need the 3 sequences 1NT - 2NT... 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT... and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT to handle all of the "both major" invites, 5♠4♥, 5♥4♠ and 4♥4♠ respectively. When I was playing normal Stayman I used a different transfer structure but it is long enough ago that I cannot remember it 100%.

How do people handle it if a 2S rebid after stayman is a 5 card spade invite?

[Zelandakh]

 GHS_K_Chow, on 2013-February-22, 05:25, said:

How do people handle it if a 2S rebid after stayman is a 5 card spade invite?

I am not sure I understand the question given that the passage you quoted relates to a Puppet resposne structure. If you play this then it frees up the sequence 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 2NT to be used as clubs, getting back the second round transfers even with spades. Or you can have 2 types of invite, one based on power and the other requiring a fit. I am not sure what knock-on effect you mean for 1NT - 2♦ sequences.

FWiiW, I know I did not use 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ in this way, nor have I ever done so. This was a Baron range ask for me in the old normal Stayman method (but shows 4 hearts in the Puppet build).

[GHS_K_Chow]

I was wondering how most people handled hands with 5♥ and 4♠ and invitational if they played transfers after transfers and 2♠ rebid after stayman as 5 cards invitational.

[Zelandakh]

I cannot answer for anyone else but, as above, I play 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT as 5♥4♠ and invitational. Given your conditions, another simple solution would be to drop Crawing Stayman and use 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ as 5 hearts and invitational. If you were to take the club hands out of Stayman, for example by using 2♠ for 2-suited hands and 3♣ for one-suiters (as I do), then you could play 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ (or 3♦) as an invite with 5♥ and 4♠, although that would obviously not allow you to stop in 2NT when there is no fit. Not surprisingly, I like my solution best from these. Other solutions exist too - for example I play 1NT - 2NT as an invite with 5♠ and 4♥. There is nothing stopping anyone from making this 5♥ and 4♠ if that is the awkward hand for the system.

[aguahombre]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all of those transfer schemes only necessary because of playing 2C Puppet and trying to overcome the problems of Puppet when responder is 5/4 or 4/5 in the Majors and only invitational in strength?

Just asking, but offhand it seems much easier to not use 2C Puppet and let 2C-2D-2M just be mini Smolen from which opener decides right then to sign off in 2NT, 3H/2S, 3NT, or 4M. without further leakage and opener always playing the hand.