[Jinksy]

How would you understand the final bids in the following sequences, sans in-depth system discussion, playing 2/1 GF with a 26ish YO partner:

P P 1H 1S
2S X 3S

1D 1S X 2S
P P X P
2N

1D P 2S(weak) P
P X P P
XX

(if it matters, scoring is IMPs)

[the_clown]

1. I would guess slam try with a spade control. But I would not be very confident.

2. Weak NT with a good stopper.

3. SOS- probalby 0454, with a two-suiter he could bid 2NT

[gnasher]

1. He's bidding 4♥ to make, and wants to set up a forcing pass.

2. A weak notrump without anything better to bid. I don't think it promises a spade stop, as he has to bid something with xxx Kxx AQxx Kxx.

3. SOS. He can't have a business redouble after passing 2♠ and then hearing that the cards are lying badly for us.

Quote

SOS- probalby 0454, with a two-suiter he could bid 2NT

With 5-5 he could bid 3♣. I'd expect 2NT to be 6-4 in the minors.

[jogs]

Jinksy, on 2013-January-07, 09:07, said:

How would you understand the final bids in the following sequences, sans in-depth system discussion, playing 2/1 GF with a 26ish YO partner:

P P 1H 1S
2S X 3S

1D 1S X 2S
P P X P
2N

1D P 2S(weak) P
P X P P
XX

(if it matters, scoring is IMPs)

Bad bidding. Never make these bids without discussion.

[mikeh]

I agree with everything andy wrote

[lalldonn]

gnasher, on 2013-January-07, 10:47, said:

1. He's bidding 4♥ to make, and wants to set up a forcing pass.

2. A weak notrump without anything better to bid. I don't think it promises a spade stop, as he has to bid something with xxx Kxx AQxx Kxx.

3. SOS. He can't have a business redouble after passing 2♠ and then hearing that the cards are lying badly for us.


With 5-5 he could bid 3♣. I'd expect 2NT to be 6-4 in the minors.

Everything you said, except who knows maybe he is 0562 and can pull 3♣.

[Fluffy]

I disagree with many wich means I am probably wrong.

1. For me 2♠ sets a forcing pass already at the 4 level. 3♠ is a slam interest hand then.

2. My metha rules don't allow a natural 2NT here so pick a minor is what I'd understood, it probably isn't best, it would have to be something like 3253.

3. SOS is obvious

[PhilKing]

On number 3, maybe I'm being a bit thick, but if I was 0454 I would never run. The only places I might consider running to are the bar and the toilet.

I think my hand is a 1444 17 count with stiff ace or some such, and I am redoubling because I think I may well make it. But the truth is I am not 26, so I would never redouble.

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2013-January-07, 20:09, said:

But the truth is I am not 26

[SteveMoe]

1) Control bid or GF. Many paths forward. Slam is on the radar.
2) 2N bidder likely has poorish 4-card ♠ suit.
3) To play - Expect 3-4 trumps in a balanced weak NT. If SOS, which 2-card suit do I expect partner to choose? I do not think SOS makes sense opposite a known weak hand with a 6-7 card suit.

[lycier]

1-A heart suit fit hasn't been identified at present,so 3♠ was western cuebid ,its meanings is to bid 3nt as a final contract if partner has a spade stopper or a control .

2-its meanings is to ask partner what's your first priority ? it is impossible for the opener to play 2nt as a final contract.

3-its meanings is that I Don't believe 2♠ can't be made with extra values!

[andy_h]

On number 2, maybe I'm being a perfectionist, but I would prefer it to have a spade stopper. I understand that in other types of auctions such as 1m-(1S)-Dbl-(Pass); 1NT or 1m-(2S)-Dbl-(Pass); 2NT where the NT bid may not have a stopper (which is OK since 4th seat didn't support), but here on this auction the opponents have bid and raised spades - I'm not sure why we must wrongside the NT's now. I guess the only time where the hands that contain no spade stoppers will be ones that are exactly 3=3=4=3 shape since with a doubleton spade you would have another 4 card suit (or 5 diamonds) to bid with. So I guess what I'm saying is with a 3=3=4=3 shape I prefer a 3C (or 3D?) lie than a stopperless 2NT. This way we can still get to 3NT from the right side (or 4H on a 4-3 if need be), and partner won't (shouldn't?) be quick to get excited to play in 5m when I could have some balanced hand such as 3=2=4=4.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 we have a heart fit, we are in FP, if opener accepts the invite, which he did bypassing
3H, hence spade control (shortage quite likely) / slam probe.
#2 scrambling, minor suit oriented - 5 diamonds, 3 clubs are possible
#3 for blood, but I dont believe in SOS, and I am also ways past my 26th birthday.
Just because opener passed 2S, does not mean, he does not have a business XX, it just
means, he does not think game is possible.
The question is, how well defined are your 2S bid in this situation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[RSClyde]

If partner XXs for business with 3 or 4 spades then he is an idiot. He can't handle their run out with that, let's turn 2SX making into 3 of something making thier way. If it was business then he is surely short in spades and ready to carry the opponents out if they run. But this is aweful thin: over 2S I didn't breathe, but try to saw me off now I'm ready to pounce? With a 3 suiter I think he resigns himself to the ensuing bloodbath and let's it ride. With extra diamonds or clubs he could bid it directly.

The only hand that I can think of in which such a sequence is sensible is the following: He ultimately wishes to pull the double but is willing to sit if you think you can handle it. A hand like x, Ax, AKxxx, AKxxx. If your spades are QJT965 then 2S will be the right strain, if they are terrible then probably a minor is right. But it would have to be a good hand since if you choose to play in spades you are playing it XX so you better make it.

[gnasher]

The SOS redouble might be rare, but I don't think it's nonexistent. It would be reasonable on something like - QJ10x KJ109x Axxx, where 3♦ is likely to be better than 2♠ even opposite a 6313 shape. The redouble allows opener to pull to 3♦ whilst allowing for the possibility that responder has a 4-card side-suit.

[rhm]

Jinksy, on 2013-January-07, 09:07, said:

How would you understand the final bids in the following sequences, sans in-depth system discussion, playing 2/1 GF with a 26ish YO partner:
1D P 2S(weak) P
P X P P
XX
(if it matters, scoring is IMPs)

gnasher, on 2013-January-07, 10:47, said:

3. SOS. He can't have a business redouble after passing 2♠ and then hearing that the cards are lying badly for us.

So what hand may want to run from 2♠ doubled supposedly to the three level, which would require partner's cooperation?
Certainly not a one-suiter. Two-suiter can bid 2NT. A three suiter is extremely unlikely to uncover a fit.
I find SOS redoubles, when partner has shown a spade suit generally stupid.
How many doubled undertricks do you think you can save that way even if you are 0♠=4♥=5♦=4♣?
For an interesting practical example where I made a similar comment to Kit Woolsey
http://bridgewinners...ew/the-big-one/

If you think a business redouble makes little sense, a SOS redouble makes even less, in fact much less.
Why can't opener not have a hand just short of trying for game with well positioned spade honors or a very strong hand (18-19 balanced, which looks suitable to scranmbling 8 tricks even against a bad trump break)
After all the reopening Double is very much a shot in the dark and RHO may very well have only unappealing options left.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

rhm, on 2013-January-11, 04:10, said:

So what hand may want to run from 2♠ doubled supposedly to the three level, which would require partner's cooperation?

The one I posted earlier today.

Quote

If you think a business redouble makes little sense, an SOS redouble makes even less, in fact much less.

I don't think a business redouble makes "little sense", I think it makes no sense. If the probability of holding a business redouble is zero, there's no need to estimate the liklihood of holding an SOS redouble.

Quote

Why can't opener not have a hand just short of trying for game with well positioned spade honors or a very strong hand (18-19 balanced, which looks suitable to scranmbling 8 tricks even against a bad trump break)
After all the reopening Double is very much a shot in the dark and RHO may very well have only unappealing options left.

Perhaps you could provide an example of the sort of hand you are thinking of, and also of the responding hand that you hope to find opposite?

[RSClyde]

rhm, on 2013-January-11, 04:10, said:

So what hand may want to run from 2♠ doubled supposedly to the three level, which would require partner's cooperation?
Certainly not a one-suiter. Two-suiter can bid 2NT. A three suiter is extremely unlikely to uncover a fit.
I find SOS redoubles, when partner has shown a spade suit generally stupid.
How many doubled undertricks do you think you can save that way even if you are 0♠=4♥=5♦=4♣?
For an interesting practical example where I made a similar comment to Kit Woolsey
http://bridgewinners...ew/the-big-one/

If you think a business redouble makes little sense, a SOS redouble makes even less, in fact much less.
Why can't opener not have a hand just short of trying for game with well positioned spade honors or a very strong hand (18-19 balanced, which looks suitable to scranmbling 8 tricks even against a bad trump break)
After all the reopening Double is very much a shot in the dark and RHO may very well have only unappealing options left.

Rainer Herrmann

If he has any kind of spade fit (a well positioned honor is at least an 8-fit) then the opponents have a fit and he's giving them the chance to get out. He'll never get 3 of thier suit enough to offset 2SX making.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2013-January-11, 04:57, said:

The one I posted earlier today.


I don't think a business redouble makes "little sense", I think it makes no sense. If the probability of holding a business redouble is zero, there's no need to estimate the liklihood of holding an SOS redouble.


Perhaps you could provide an example of the sort of hand you are thinking of, and also of the responding hand that you hope to find opposite?

Depends a bit how weak 2♠ is and how bad the suit can be.

Opener

♠J
♥AKxx
♦Axxx
♣Axxx

or

♠x
♥AKxx
♦Axxxx
♣AKx

many 18-19 hands with more spades would redouble.

I am with Philking.
Your arguments with - QJ10x KJ109x Axxx cut no ice with me.
You only get out of the frying pan into the fire. In the majority of deals playing 2♠ will still be best. Partner's hand may be worthless outside of spades.
On some the result will be equally bad and only on a tiny number will you go down less in three of something than in 2♠.
You need a long suit or a fit to increase the trick level in desperate situations. How likely is it that you have a 4-4 fit?
Even in this unlikely event there is no guarantee that it will be better on the marked trump lead.
The odds are not good.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

rhm, on 2013-January-11, 05:48, said:

Depends a bit how weak 2♠ is and how bad the suit can be.

Yes, of course it does, and that's why I asked you what hand you hoped to find opposite. Playing a style where those two hands are (a) not worth a move opposite 2♠ and (b) now worth a redouble, what is the range of responding hands you expect?