[Free]

Not sure if this is actually a simple ruling, but the TD took quite a while to make a decision. Here it goes.

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After the deal West asks South what she held, because she didn't have any ♥s. Apparently NS play 1NT Comic, meaning that it's either 15-17 balanced or any 8 card suit. This was also written on the CC, but North forgot to alert 1NT. West claims he was damaged and would've bid 4♥ if he had all the information. North claims that they would defend 5♦ in that case, because he realized it was an 8 card suit when South pulled the penalty Dbl (2nd Dbl) and the vulnerability was favorable. South claims she could've made 5♦.

What's your ruling?

If it matters, these are the frequencies, this score not included:
550 3
130 1
110 1
100 3
-50 3
-100 5
-140 1
-300 1
-620 4

Edit 1: for those who don't want to see the full play of the hand, the result was 4♦= after various blunders by both declarer and defenders.
Edit 2: DD EW can only make 3♥. DD NS can only make 4♦.

[gordontd]

Free, on 2012-December-26, 16:24, said:

he realized it was an 8 card suit when South pulled the penalty Dbl and the vulnerability was favorable.

And yet he made a second penalty double, rather than raising.

[Free]

gordontd, on 2012-December-26, 16:34, said:

And yet he made a second penalty double, rather than raising.

The first Dbl wasn't meant as penalty, the 2nd Dbl was.

[lamford]

gordontd, on 2012-December-26, 16:34, said:

And yet he made a second penalty double, rather than raising.

I presumed from the absence of alerts that both doubles were takeout, although I don't know the alerting rules in Belgium. At least South only passes when he has the 15-17 balanced variety. I think East will bid 4H with correct information. South has said his say, as has North, who has made two doubles. So, at first sight, 4H undoubled by E/W, -620 for N/S. But I could be persuaded otherwise, unless sticking with one's original opinion is de rigeur these days.

[blackshoe]

Well, I've always reserved the right to change my mind in forums, so I can hardly deny it to others.

[blackshoe]

I assume Comic NT is legal in Belgium. If not, the ruling would be different.

North's failure to alert 1NT is MI to EW (Law 20) and UI to South (Law 16). The play having concluded, it's too late to change any calls, so if the MI caused damage, the TD shall adjust the score (Law 21).

South's failure to call the TD after the final pass and explain that his partner failed to alert 1NT is a violation of Law 20's provision that he must do so. Unless South is a rank beginner, the offense rates a PP (Law 20, Law 90, Introduction to the Laws).

Was there damage? I don't know. What was the table result?

[bluejak]

lamford, on 2012-December-26, 16:46, said:

I presumed from the absence of alerts that both doubles were takeout, although I don't know the alerting rules in Belgium. At least South only passes when he has the 15-17 balanced variety. I think East will bid 4H with correct information. South has said his say, as has North, who has made two doubles. So, at first sight, 4H undoubled by E/W, -620 for N/S. But I could be persuaded otherwise, unless sticking with one's original opinion is de rigeur these days.

I would have thought that North might sacrifice with his known 11 card fit some of the time, ie [as usual] I think a weighted score including a large proportion of 4♥ making is better.

I take it South hasn't learnt to count up to eight yet.

[blackshoe]

Yeah, I'd say a weighted score, assuming there was damage (there almost certainly was. but that fact is not yet in evidence).

[mycroft]

If a weighted score, some fraction of 1NT-some number should be in the weighting. Yes, they're red on white, and yes, there might be game on; but with the correct information, East might just pass. The heart lead is pretty much auto from West, and South has somewhat of a discarding problem.

I've never played against a Comic NT, however; if those that are more used to it due to it being legal there think it's insane to pass the East hand, ignore it.

Edit: because defending 1NT gets E/W a better score than achieved at the table, as long as that's a reasonable gamble, I think that defines "damage".

[Free]

While I don't think pass is possible by East, you make an interesting point mycroft.

At the table, the TD decided to apply a weighted score as well. Which score would you all give?

[Trinidad]

I will keep it simple. I believe everybody except for South:

I believe West that he would bid 4♥. I believe North that he would bid 5♦. I don't believe South that she will make it.

I don't know how the play went. But it is clear that declarer's errors were her own. The errors by the defense may have been caused by the fact that they didn't know what the South hand looked like, certainly not at the time of the opening lead. Therefore, it is possible that a defender's error would disappear when they play 5♦ with the correct explanation, but there is no reason why declarer's errors would disappear.

I would investigate the errors by the defense. Based on that, I might include the possibility of declarer making only 9 tricks in a diamond contract.

If there is no reason to blame the defenders' errors on the MI, I would adjust to a weighted score of:
- 50% 5♦-1: NS-50, EW+50
- 50% 5♦X-1: NS-100, EW+100

I would also tell South that she needs to call the TD before the opening lead when her partner has given MI and she will be dummy or declarer. Depending on South' experience, I might add a PP.

Rik

[Free]

Trinidad, on 2012-December-27, 13:12, said:

I don't know how the play went.

Why do I even bother to enter the entire play if it's too hard to press the <next> button to watch the play?

[mink]

There was one infraction not yet mentioned: North, as he confessed himself, remembered the system when seeing the 4♦ bid. At this time he should have called the TD and make a late alert, thereby informing opps. Failing to do this is worth another PP IMO.

After correct information I judge that the contract will be 5♦ doubled. I fail to see, however, why West should find another lead than he did against 4♦, and I also cannot see a reason why declarer should play the clubs differently, so result is -1 - same number of tricks as in the original play.

Karl

[Trinidad]

Free, on 2012-December-27, 14:33, said:

Why do I even bother to enter the entire play if it's too hard to press the <next> button to watch the play?

Sry. I am way too old to think of technologically advanced things like <next> buttons.

Anyway, having seen the play, I will stick to my ruling and rule 10 tricks: 50% in 5♦ and 50% in 5♦X.

Rik

[bluejak]

Free, on 2012-December-27, 14:33, said:

Why do I even bother to enter the entire play if it's too hard to press the <next> button to watch the play?

<next> button?

[FrancesHinden]

Why isn't passing 3♥x a logical alternative for South, who has already shown the 'comic' nature of his hand on the previous round and has UI from partner's lack of alert?

[mink]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-December-27, 16:24, said:

Why isn't passing 3♥x a logical alternative for South, who has already shown the 'comic' nature of his hand on the previous round and has UI from partner's lack of alert?

This was my first thought, too, but as the first double was takeout, the 3♦ bid probably did not show the 8 card suit yet. South should really think that North still assumed the (much more frequent) 15-17 case when doubling.

Karl

[blackshoe]

Free, on 2012-December-27, 14:33, said:

Why do I even bother to enter the entire play if it's too hard to press the <next> button to watch the play?

bluejak, on 2012-December-27, 15:40, said:

<next> button?

The <Next> button is at the bottom of the bidding diagram in post # 1.

[Free]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-December-27, 16:24, said:

Why isn't passing 3♥x a logical alternative for South, who has already shown the 'comic' nature of his hand on the previous round and has UI from partner's lack of alert?

North bids like South has a normal NT opening. When South does something unexpected, it means she has an 8 card suit. Bidding 3♦ after a takeout Dbl isn't unexpected, so North still acts like South has a 15-17 NT opening. When South pulls the 2nd Dbl (penalty) it's clear this is not a normal NT opening. The same principle applies when you're not playing Comic but decide to psych a 1NT opening with long ♦s.