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"Don't be silly chaps!" Bridge in rural England - Two revokes

#21 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2012-December-10, 08:00

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-December-10, 06:06, said:

My literal reading of 64B is that it applies to an established revoke but, given that we are working out how to deal with one, 64B7 applies whether or not the second revoke is established. That may or may not be what the Lawmakers intended.

I don't think the lawmakers ever conceived the possibility of a revoke from each side on the same board in such a way that the first revoke was not established while the second was.
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#22 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-December-23, 17:12

So we have an unestablished revoke followed by an established revoke. Dealing with matters in order, a principle mentioned above which is often followed in cases of doubt but is not a matter of Law or WBFLC interpretation, the first revoke must be corrected per Law 62A. After it is corrected, the next two cards may be corrected per Law 62C1. The ownership of that trick is decided by normal rules, since the revoke Laws do not suggest otherwise.

This means that the established revoke has been corrected in defiance of Law 63B. While it is unfortunate to assume the lawmakers have made a mistake, I suggest they have done so, since I believe it should read:

Quote

Once a revoke is established, it may no longer be corrected (except as provided in Law 62D for a revoke on the twelfth trick or as provided in Law 62C1 after a previous revoke), and the trick on
which the revoke occurred stands as played.

As to penalty tricks [no, I do not use the term "rectification" when it is unsuitable] I am afraid that Law 64B7 is clear and unambiguous, so there are no penalty tricks.

As to Law 64C that stands on its merits. It is not affected by Law 64B7 which refers only to penalty tricks not equity, so must be applied for each side, allowing for the WBFLC minute that equity is considered for the second revoking side after the first revoke.

Messy. But I don't think there is a particular justification for dealing with the second revoke first: that is just as messy if not more so. I think we just have to live with the fact that multiple infractions lead to complications. While the WBFLC gets blamed for not dealing with multiple infractions, I am not convinced it is at all easy to do so, because of the myriad of possible situations.
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#23 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2012-December-23, 19:06

View Postbluejak, on 2012-December-23, 17:12, said:

So we have an unestablished revoke followed by an established revoke. Dealing with matters in order, a principle mentioned above which is often followed in cases of doubt but is not a matter of Law or WBFLC interpretation, the first revoke must be corrected per Law 62A. After it is corrected, the next two cards may be corrected per Law 62C1. The ownership of that trick is decided by normal rules, since the revoke Laws do not suggest otherwise.


I think we just have to live with the fact that multiple infractions lead to complications. While the WBFLC gets blamed for not dealing with multiple infractions, I am not convinced it is at all easy to do so, because of the myriad of possible situations.


This assertion is particularly incredible as it is indeed easy to have law that makes dealing with multiple infractions rather straight forward. The constructing of law is not particularly difficult provided the myriad of existing law provisions that make it impossible to do so are first remedied.
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#24 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-23, 19:10

Your mission, Mr. Axman, should you decide to accept it, is to develop such a set of laws. Should you fail, the Secretary will deny all knowledge of this tasking.

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#25 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-December-24, 14:08

View Postaxman, on 2012-December-23, 19:06, said:

This assertion is particularly incredible as it is indeed easy to have law that makes dealing with multiple infractions rather straight forward. The constructing of law is not particularly difficult provided the myriad of existing law provisions that make it impossible to do so are first remedied.

Of course it is not easy. You have a number of possible infractions in the game, I have no idea how many, say 200 for luck. So if you have two infractions that's 40,000 different possibilities, yes? Jolly easy to deal with all - and I hate to think of triple infractions.

No doubt oyu will come up with some meaningless over-simplification like deal with the first one first. In no way does that solve the problem - see this thread - but anyway what happens if they are simultaneous?

Of course it is not easy.
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#26 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2012-December-25, 23:33

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-December-23, 19:10, said:

Your mission, Mr. Axman, should you decide to accept it, is to develop such a set of laws. Should you fail, the Secretary will deny all knowledge of this tasking.

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BBODontBeSillyChaps

L61 Irregularities in Following Suit
A. Revoke Defined
1. Failure to Follow Suit At one’s turn to play, the failure to follow suit when legally able is a revoke.
2. Failure to Pay Penalty The failure to comply with a penalty to play a specified suit (or card) when legally able is a revoke.

B. Right to Draw Attention During the play period a player (declarer acts for dummy) who revokes may so draw attention until his side plays to the next trick. Also,
1. Conditional Right of LHO only the LHO<52> of a player who failed to follow suit may so draw attention, provided his side has not subsequently played; and, if the play was a revoke it shall be acknowledged forthwith.
2. After the Play Period after the play period any player may draw attention to a failure to follow suit.
3. Illegal inquiry if attention was drawn other than as provided by L61B (illegally) to the failure to follow suit the director must be summoned forthwith to avoid the diminishing of rights; where attention was improperly drawn
a. by his partner, or a spectator he is responsible for (L11C), the player is instructed that he must acknowledge such a revoke (see L49C2, L62C3, & L63B).
b. by his opponent, or a spectator he is responsible for (L11C), the player is instructed that he need not acknowledge such a revoke at that time, but must do so at the end of the play period.
4. Unauthorized information drawing attention to a failure to follow suit when one does not have the right may make UI available or be a violation of L73B.
C. Claims When play ceases because of a claim or concession by an opponent, and before acquiescence, his side may ask without penalty about a failure to follow suit for the purpose of preventing the establishment of a revoke. Discovery of any such revoke is not grounds to retract the claim or concession but may be grounds for indemnification provided by L64B.

52 L61B1 Only declarer acts for dummy.


L62 Correction of a Revoke
An established revoke may not be corrected except as provided by law. When a play has been canceled, retracted, or withdrawn see L16F.
A. Benefit The correction of an unestablished revoke prevents its establishment. If an established revoke is corrected as provided by law, it remains established for the purpose of applying L64.
B. Optional Correction A contestant may (but is not required to, except as provided by L62C) correct his unestablished revoke.
C. Mandatory Correction A contestant shall correct his revoke if
1. Revoker Draws Attention revoker draws attention (see L49) to his unestablished revoke before his side has played to the next trick. or
2. Legal Inquiry attention is legally drawn to his failure to follow suit and (a) the revoke has not become established and (b) no opponent has played subsequent to acknowledgment . or
3. Illegal Inquiry by Partner his partner drew attention<53> to his failure to follow suit before his side plays to the next trick and provided that the other side has not played subsequent the revoke’s establishment.
D. Indemnity If a player legally required to correct a revoke fails to do so and if the director judges that the score of the other side might have been higher<54> because of the required correction, the director shall so adjust the score considering the most favorable plausible score that could have been achieved by the other side had the correction been made.
E. Procedure To correct an unestablished revoke, or, an established revoke as provided by L63B, the revoke card is retracted (see L47) and
1. The Correction
a) No Subsequent Play if there was no play<55> between the revoke and its acknowledgement (nor play by the partner prior to correction) revoker selects his substitution
b) Subsequent Play otherwise<56> , (there having been such subsequent** play) revoker substitutes a card where the LHO may (but is not required to) elect to require the highest or lowest legal card be substituted to correct the revoke.
2. Play Subsequent Correction after a revoke is corrected L47E governs play subsequent to the correction of the revoke.
3. Substitution Prohibited
a. Play Prior to Ruling a card played<57> after the revoke was acknowledged may not be changed except to correct an illegal play.
b. POOT Subsequent the Revoke a card played subsequent the revoke but not in proper rotation forfeits any option<58> to change the play and is subject to L53.
c. Revoke Established by Subsequent Play a revoke established<59> via revoker’s side playing to a subsequent trick may not be corrected.
4. Revised Penalty Option if subsequent to a revoke and prior to its correction revoker’s partner had played subject to penalty option, the other side may revise its selection of penalty option, if any. The revoking side has no right to alter any previously chosen penalty.



53 L62C3 See L63B about establishment of the revoke.
54 L62D Including the effect of the resulting PC.
55 L62E1a However, a POOT by revoker’s RHO is considered to not be a play (as in ignored) with respect to this provision to correct a revoke.
56 L62E1b However, if the only subsequent play was by revoker’s RHO OOT, or himself in turn, L62E1a and not L62E1b applies.
57 L62E3a Refers only to a card played to the revoke trick or the next trick.
58 L62E3b as distinguished from a mandatory correction of an illegal play
59 L62E3c As distinguished from establishment by illegal drawing attention to the failure to follow suit.


L63 Establishment of a Revoke
Once established, a revoke remains established.
A. Establishment by Play A revoke is established when a member of the revoking side plays or designates a play to the next trick, or, makes a claim, a concession, or, his side acquiesces to a claim, or accepts a concession. However, when an opponent claims before normal play would have established the revoke, L61C applies and if the revoke is corrected before the side acquiesces, it is not established.
B. Establishment by Illegal Inquiry If a player improperly (L61B) draws attention (see L49C) to his partner’s failure to follow suit that is a revoke, the revoke is established (L62C3 may apply). See L11C if a spectator was first to draw attention to a revoke.
C. Correction Prohibited Once established a revoke shall not be corrected except as provided by L62C and L67.

L64 Revoke Remedies
After a revoke has been verified as established the director transfers (but see L11C) tricks to the other side after the play period has ended (exception: the case of the failure to play a PC as required is not penalized if the contestant in fact followed suit); however, if the number of tricks to be transferred exceeds the number won<60> by a side subsequent an established revoke the excess tricks are not transferred.
A. Penalty Until the right to penalize expires one trick is transferred for each established revoke; and for each suit in which a player revokes additional tricks are transferred as follows:
1. Won Revoke Trick For each revoke suit that the revoker won the revoke trick, if the offending side won a subsequent trick, one additional trick is transferred.
2. Lost Revoke Trick When revoker did not win the revoke trick, then for each revoke suit one additional trick is transferred for each such suit where afterward the revoker won a trick with a card that he could have legally played to the revoke trick.


60 L64 Including penalty tricks due from subsequent revokes by the other side



L47 Retraction of Play
When a play has been canceled, retracted, or withdrawn see L16F. Such retracted cards (L56) are penalty cards and are subject to Law 50 except when the law provides that a retracted card is returned to a contestant’s hand.
A. Option to Correct a Revoke An option to correct a revoke by substituting a legal play expires once the offending side plays to a subsequent trick.
B. Mandatory Retraction of Illegal Play An irregular play shall be retracted (and a legal one substituted as provided by law) if required to comply with a ruling.
C. Defective Trick A card from a trick containing too many cards, or a card improperly associated with a trick but not played to it, shall be retracted in accordance with L67.
D. Correction of Dummy’s Play Dummy’s card may be corrected only as provided by L46A, L46C, L47, or L67.
E. Play After a Revoke Correction Upon a contestant correcting his revoke by substituting a card,<41> cards played by a side that did not revoke and subsequent the withdrawn card and prior to revoke being acknowledged are returned (except as restricted by L62E3) to their previous condition without additional penalty and each such player then substitutes in rotation a legal<42> play for his withdrawn card(s). Thereafter, play reverts to the proper contestant and continues normally; further, if the contestant’s side did not revoke during the trick all such retracted cards are AI to his side.
F. Induced POOT If an opponent incorrectly informs a contestant that it was his turn and he plays before being correctly informed, subject to L53C he may return the card to its previous condition without penalty.
G. Play After MI If a legal play relied on an opponent’s uncorrected MI, once the MI is corrected the play may be corrected (without penalty) only if no other card has subsequently been played by his side. To do so he retracts the card, restoring it to its previous condition, and substitutes a card in its place; otherwise it is too late to correct his play. The retracted card is AI to his side and is UI to the other side.
1. Limitation However, after the dummy’s concealed cards have been spread in whole or part, an opening lead may not be retracted without penalty unless L47F applies.
2. Too Late to Correct See L75L when it is too late to change a play based on uncorrected MI under L47G.
H. Retraction Prohibited A played card may not be retracted except in accordance with L47A to 47G.


41 L47E Distinct from failure to contribute a card to the trick.
42 L47E If ownership of the revoke trick changed due the correction where the NOS had otherwise properly led to the next trick, after the non revoking side has completed play to the corrected revoke trick, play then reverts to the proper contestant as if the player had not led to the next trick.



L49 Exposed Cards
A. Prior to Play Period Except for withdrawn cards restored to the hand in accordance with law, once the auction is over and prior to the play period,
1. a defender’s card exposed
a. deliberately is played to the first trick subject to L41E3b.
b. inadvertently becomes a PC.
2. if a member of the declaring side exposes a card it shall remain faced until the opening lead and shall then be restored<43> to the hand without further penalty.
B. During Play Period Except for withdrawn cards restored to the hand in accordance with law, during the play period
1. any card played to a trick that is retracted becomes a PC.
2. any card prematurely and deliberately exposed, except when claiming, is resolved as provided by L45C1.
3. a player’s accidently dropped card is resolved as provided by L45C2.
C. Player Reveals Identity of Card If a player reveals<44> , such as by naming it, that he possesses a card (see the proprieties when the contestant does not possess the card.)
1. during the auction period see L24.
2. during the play period it must be played forthwith, even if subject to penalty; and see L53.


43 L49A2 If a LOOT is made, the exposure of the card may affect the penalties of L53A1.
44 L49C A player who announces on his own initiative that he has revoked is deemed to have so revealed possessing a card of the revoke suit. If the revoke has been established then for the purpose of determining the card to be played forthwith L46D applies subject to L62E as if a euphemism was used.

L50 Penalty Cards
When a defender has a penalty card, it is AI to his partner that there is a penalty card, but other information from the card (such as signaling or the existence of the card in the hand) is unauthorized to his partner. When selecting a choice of penalty a player shall not consult his partner.
A. Location A PC remains faced on the table in front of the player to whom it belongs until it is played or no longer is a PC.
B. Requirement to Play A PC shall be played at the first legal<45> opportunity, but see L52. However, if there is a choice<46> of more than one PC that can legally be played, his LHO<47> is entitled, but is not required, to specify which card shall be played.
C. Lead Penalty Options When the partner of a player with a PC is to lead, the LHO has the right
1. Right To Select to require the lead of the suit, or, forbid the lead of the suit(s) of any PC until his side plays. The penalty shall continue until the lead has been lost. The PC(s) of all suits specified shall be restored to the hand and are no longer penalty cards. See L59 when the offender is unable to comply with the penalty.
2. Selection Delayed to not exercise the penalty option at that time, and the contestant may lead any legal card he chooses and all such cards of a player remain penalty cards.
D. Duration of Penalty Card
1. Penalty not Exercised A PC remains a PC until it is played or its penalty option has been exercised.
2. Played PC If play of a PC has been canceled to remedy an irregularity, and another card was legally substituted, the retracted card remains a PC.
E. PC Damages Other Side If the director judges that the OS gained an advantage through knowledge contained in a PC, such as by adopting a line of play suggested by an exposed card but not apparent from AI, and damage to the NOS was a consequence, he may assign an adjusted score.


45 L50B The lead penalties of L26 and L50C take precedence over the requirement to play a PC.
46 L50B When the player is void in the suit led he is required to so announce at his turn for the purpose of clarifying that there is a choice.
47 L50B Only declarer speaks for dummy.



For this case, upon establishing the facts
1. instruct that no one is to speak without instruction
2. W must acknowledge [L61B3a] if he revoked; and having acknowledged the revoke this identifies [L49C2] that he had a D and thus must be instructed to play [a POOT] his smallest diamond forthwith. The revoke having been established by play [subject to penalty at the end] must not be corrected and thus the D becomes a withdrawn card [subject to L53A2b] left faced on the table.
3. S is instructed that he need not acknowledge [L61B3b] such a revoke at this time [but refraining now must still do so at the end] as the inquiry was done illegally, however, if he does so [it being unestablished] it must be corrected forthwith [creating <L47> a PC] whereby W may specify [if he chooses and without delay] [L62E1b] the correction be the highest or lowest diamond.
4. presuming S chooses to prevent establishment of his revoke whereby W then may not choose [L47E due to his side's revoke] to correct his subsequent H play.
5. E's infraction of L61B3a is assessed a half point PP
6. play proceeds
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