[Hanoi5]

In a recent thread I came to realize that ranges were not as universal as I thought.

The book I used to learn bridge explained 1-level opening bids as showing 13-21 HCP's and 16-18 for 1NT. When I received classes I learned the ranges had 'devaluated' to 12-20 and 15-17 for 1NT.

Of course you open the occasional 11-HCP-hand, but I always viewed opener's ranges as 12-14, 15-17 and 18-20. This was always true for NT, with a balanced hand you open 1NT (15-17), 12-14 is shown by 1x-1y-1NT and 18-20 by 1x-1y-2NT.

It was about the same for supporting responder in a Major, 1x-1y-2y is 12-14, 3y 15-17 (which should be unbalanced) and 4y 18-20. Rebidding your suit would show 12-14 at the minimum level, 15-17 if you jumped and 18-20 should be done by using some other route (a forcing rebid by opener). To shift to another suit opener would need 12-17 (two ranges together) for the lowest level rebid and 18-20 for a jump at the three level (or a jump reverse). A reverse would show a strong hand 18+ for some, 16+ for some others.

Of course there's always the re-evaluation of the hand, but in general I always thought these ranges made a lot of sense, if not for some details (like, why would 18 be forcing to game if responder could have only 6 HCP's?).

So, are these ranges too way off? Why do some people play 11-15 and 16-18 ranges? Would those ranges fit in the structure I manage? Am I wrong or just different?

[Stephen Tu]

Hanoi5, on 2012-November-15, 21:29, said:

In a recent thread I came to realize that ranges were not as universal as I thought.

A lot depends on how old a book you are learning from, and whether you are counting just HCP, or both HCP and shape. For my comments below, for balanced NT openings and NT rebids, I mean HCP only, though many add a point or so for a good 5+ suit. For other rebids, I mean "total points", including distributional assets, so adding points for good long suits & shortness.

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The book I used to learn bridge explained 1-level opening bids as showing 13-21 HCP's and 16-18 for 1NT. When I received classes I learned the ranges had 'devaluated' to 12-20 and 15-17 for 1NT.

In very old days, 1nt was 16-18, 2nt was 22-24, rebid 2nt 19-21. Still taught that way in old books, people who play in social casual bridge often still play this sort of range. You need 13 to open, 13-15 is a reasonable range for 1nt rebid.

But these days, duplicate, people like to open a lot lighter. Open all or almost all 12 counts. 12-15 is wider range, harder to handle with 1nt rebid. So all the ranges have slid down, standard range for duplicate these days are 12-14/15-17/18-19/20-21 for 1nt rebid, 1nt open, 2nt rebid, 2nt open respectively. 2nt open and 2nt rebid constricted to 2 point ranges, because there is no room to invite, it is more accurate to have 2 point spread than 3. Open 2c with 22+.

Aggressive players are pushing the envelope even further, open strong nt on 14-16, and opening many 11 counts, not just "occasional", sliding everything even further. This works better with strong club system though IMO.

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It was about the same for supporting responder in a Major, 1x-1y-2y is 12-14, 3y 15-17 (which should be unbalanced) and 4y 18-20. Rebidding your suit would show 12-14 at the minimum level, 15-17 if you jumped and 18-20 should be done by using some other route (a forcing rebid by opener).

If counting total points including distribution, the usual ranges are 12-15, 16-18, 19-21 for the rebid ranges when playing a strong NT. What you do with 19 HCP flat hand with 4cd fit is up to debate, some bid 4, some bid 3, some depends on hand, depends how light you respond, and what other distributional raises you have available with the 16-17 support point hands (e.g. jump reverse. Jump reverses are played as splinters these days as people play unlimited simple reverses)

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To shift to another suit opener would need 12-17 (two ranges together) for the lowest level rebid and 18-20 for a jump at the three level (or a jump reverse). A reverse would show a strong hand 18+ for some, 16+ for some others.

You need 19 total points to jump shift (game force). Jump reverse no longer show stronger than reverse, people just reverse now to save space, so jump reverse shows a raise for most people, e.g. 1c-1s-3d = spade raise diamond shortness, not hand "too strong for 2d".

Reverse min is up to partnership.

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Of course there's always the re-evaluation of the hand, but in general I always thought these ranges made a lot of sense, if not for some details (like, why would 18 be forcing to game if responder could have only 6 HCP's?).

It's not, you need 19 to force to game. New suit rebids are 12-18.

Also, many times you are better off responding fewer than 6 HCP. 4 hcp and some shape, esp with an ace. And if partner jump shifts or reverses generally respect the force even though you are under strength, he might have huge fit for you, and/or he might have 21 not just 19, and/or he might have a 2c strength opener but 2-suited that people like to open 1 to avoid getting preempted from showing both suits.

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So, are these ranges too way off? Why do some people play 11-15 and 16-18 ranges? Would those ranges fit in the structure I manage? Am I wrong or just different?

16-18 range usually means one of:
- ancient school strong 1nt opening
- "total points" range of a jump rebid, usu something like 1c-1s-3s or 1c-1s-3c, not just HCP. Stronger than min, not enough to GF opposite a std min response
- old school precision 1nt rebid range after strong club (1c!-1d!-1nt). These days most precision players play 17-19 though

11-15 ranges is just std minimum rebid range, depends how light you open, if it's a lot of 11s it probably means you are playing some sort of strong club.

[Zelandakh]

If a pair is playing 11-15/16-18 it is probably in cases where they can invite over the 11-15 hands, thus reducing the ranges to 11-13-/13+-15/16-18. Ranges naturally vary according to what hands are being shown. For example, an opening bid in Moscito shows 8-14; my opening 1♦♥♠ bids are 10-17 so the ranges are essentially 10-13/14-17 if partner invites. Basically, you want your ranges to be as small and even as possible, with some bias towards more common hands. You do not necessarily have to limit both hands but bidding is much simpler if at least one of the 2 hands is limited. Finally, you might want to alter ranges from auction to auction depending on what partner has shown. For example, while the ranges are 10-13/14-17 when partner invites, the ranges become 10-15/16-17 when partner shows a weak hand. Once you know you do not have enough for game, finding the exact strength becomes unnecessary - you are simply looking for a safe haven to stop in.

[han]

I play 1X - 1Y - 3Y as 14-15.

[lowerline]

There is a difference between old books and recent ones, but there is also a difference between America and Europe. Usually Europeans need one point less to make the same number of tricks... ;-)
It is the range of the 1nt opening that also determines the other ranges that apply in your system. With a 15-17 1nt opening, you will also have a 12-14 and a 18-19 range (but in reality these ranges are stretched by one point on average).
Then there are the situations where points are only of secondary importance: when you have found a major suit fit or when you have a long suit with lots of tricks.

Steven

[fromageGB]

Stephen Tu, on 2012-November-16, 02:18, said:

For other rebids, I mean "total points", including distributional assets, so adding points for good long suits & shortness...

If counting total points including distribution, the usual ranges are 12-15, 16-18, 19-21 for the rebid ranges when playing a strong NT...

You need 19 total points to jump shift (game force)...

I always use just hcp and adjust a hand between ranges according to quality of suits, etc, with 18 as the nominal reverse etc minimum. So a "good" 16 or 17 hcp is uprated to that value. But I don't use a formal method. How does your work? Is it similar to this Bergen points ?

My 1NT is 15-16 so I open with any 12, or an 11 with a 6 card suit. This seems normal round here.

Failed to get the link right : www.clairebridge.com/textes/bergenpoints.pdf

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2012-November-17, 06:55

[Stephen Tu]

fromageGB, on 2012-November-17, 06:55, said:

I always use just hcp and adjust a hand between ranges according to quality of suits, etc, with 18 as the nominal reverse etc minimum. So a "good" 16 or 17 hcp is uprated to that value. But I don't use a formal method. How does your work? Is it similar to this Bergen points ?

It doesn't much matter what scheme you use as long as it's upgrading/downgrading the normal factors by appropriate amounts vs. just raw HCP. Bergen's method as published in your link is certainly reasonable. You just don't want to be treating
AJxx xx Axx KQxx
the same as
AJxx xx x AKQxxx

when partner responds 1s even though both have 14 HCP.