[bluecalm]

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Of course double is not takeout lol. We showed 20-22 BALANCED and partner passed.

Imo double is t/o and I think it's way better to play it as t/o.
Partner couldn't bid anything below GF strength but odds of him having a 5-6carder somewhere opposite our say: xx AKxx AQx AKxx are great.
I mean, they have heard about 20-22 balanced part and still choose to overcall, it's not like we are collecting 500+ more often than once a century.

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4441 hands are awful, and near impossible to bid

In Vanilla 2/1 they are, in some decent system they aren't. Just open 1C and bid some multimeaning 2D reverse next round, wtp ?
Even playing vanilla you could open 1D and reverse in hearts. It sucks a bit to have 4-4 instead of 5-4 but vanilla standard always suck with strong hand anyway, this lie is not even that big.
If they bid spades you will have easy double all the way describing your hand perfectly.

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, on 2012-July-05, 14:25, said:

Imo double is t/o and I think it's way better to play it as t/o.
Partner couldn't bid anything below GF strength but odds of him having a 5-6carder somewhere opposite our say: xx AKxx AQx AKxx are great.
I mean, they have heard about 20-22 balanced part and still choose to overcall, it's not like we are collecting 500+ more often than once a century.

Look at what they overcalled 3S on on this hand lol. Do you think it is once in a century that we get 500 against that hand?

And why are you concerned only about getting 500? I want to make sure I get 200 instead of 100 when I have them beat (maybe you didn't notice it was matchpoints).

If partner has a 6 card minor, he is free to balance with it if we don't double them for penalty. If partner has a stiff spade and a little something, he is free to bid.

Imo it is absolutely insane to play double as takeout on 2N p p 3S. Something is wrong with the world. Eve if I had your example hand I am not sure I would want to double for takeout, we are r/r and I would expect to go down in 4 of something even if I hit partner with a 5 card minor. We have a lot of losers, and reasonable defense against 3S, and likely bad splits.

At some point we must have shown enough values that we can double them for penalty when they are vul at MP when we have stopepd bidding. Having at least half the deck and a balanced hand seems like a good point

[JLOGIC]

double post lol hotel internet

[Cyberyeti]

X is takeout (for us by a simple blanket agreement that after 1/2N-(3 any) X is takeout from either side and we don't distinguish 2nd/4th overcalls). A pen X deserves to catch pard with xx, xx, xxxxx, Qxxx and you take 3 tricks off a spade contract while 5♦ makes (♣ 4-1, ♦xxx-Q, K♥ offside).

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-July-05, 16:36, said:

At some point we must have shown enough values that we can double them for penalty when they are vul at MP when we have stopepd bidding. Having at least half the deck and a balanced hand seems like a good point

What's more important is what we've denied. When partner passed 2NT, he denied the values for game. Since then, all we've learned is that the suits aren't breaking, making it even less likely that we'd want to play something at the four-level. That makes double useless as a takeout bid, so it' must be for penalties.

[nige1]

manudude03 writes "First question is what do you open with this collection? Suppose you open 2NT, it goes 2NT-P-P-3S, what do you do now? MPs scoring if it matters.

IMO
1. Open 1♣ = 10, 1♦ = 9, 2♣ = 7, 2N = 6. Prefer 1♣ to 1♦ because it is less likely to be passed out.
2. Now Pass = 10, Double = 7. (In practice, I confess I might make a Walrus double)

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[Zelandakh]

JLOGIC, on 2012-July-05, 16:36, said:

If partner has a 6 card minor, he is free to balance with it if we don't double them for penalty. If partner has a stiff spade and a little something, he is free to bid.

Just thinking about this for a moment. Do you think it is reasonable to play 2NT - (P) - P - (3♠); P - (P) - 3NT as this hand, take-out with short spades? Or is this simply an accident waiting to happen? Presumably on the same auction with a 3♥ or 3m overcall the lower major would be a scramble(?) - in that case what would 3NT mean in these auctions?