[mikeh]

I would tend towards Andy's view.....I think one should bid 2♥ absent a large discrepancy in suit quality.

There are problems inherent in either approach.

1♠ 2♦
2♠ responder may hold something like 1=4=5=3 with clubs stopped...how can he justify 3♥?

Opener will almost never hold hearts and may lack club stoppers, so 3♥ endplays partner even if 3♥ were natural and not just a probe for 3N on say xx AQx AKJxx xxx

1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2N
3♥

2N was unlimited and forcing (some may have a meaning to 3N instead of 2N, but 2N could be weaker or stronger than that)

How does responder set hearts and force?

So spade spade heart is problematic, just as is spade heart spade.

What it comes down to, in most cases, is which major should be trump, assuming that we belong in a major. If we belong in spades, bidding spades twice, before hearts, helps since responder gets to raise or eventually prefer spades below game and opener can show or deny extras at that point.

In a similar vein, if we belong in hearts, the best way to explore slam is for opener to rebid 2♥ and have partner raise to 3♥.

All of this sort of gets us back to relative suit strength. We will generally be reluctant to look for a 4-4 slam if our heart suit is Jxxx, so we may wish to pretend, for now, that we don't have a heart suit. And so on.

Having said that, I would expect to rebid 2♥ on the (large) majority of 6=4 hands.

[mike777]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-19, 13:35, said:

Those are or valid points but on the other hand:
1S - 2D
2H - 2N
3S - ?

It's very difficult to have sensible auction here if opener could be anywhere in 11-21 range. You only have a cuebid and 4S available here if you want to play in 6-2 spades and this is too little to be able to judge slams reasonably and not to end up at 5 level too often.

You just assume opener is minimum.
If opener is 17+ he will push on.
The difficult range is 14-16 with a two suiter for opener and responder has more than a minimum range 2d bid.
This is somewhat seldom but is an issue.

As you note just bid 4s/3nt with a dead minimum and cue with more.

[Vampyr]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-18, 16:57, said:

I think bidding 2♥ is mendatory

Does mendatory mean that the bid is a lie?

[MrAce]

 Vampyr, on 2012-March-19, 17:45, said:

Does mendatory mean that the bid is a lie?

Ahh i see wrong spelling, i will correct it

[Quantumcat]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-19, 13:35, said:

1S - 2D
2H - 2N
3S - ?

Except that after this auction, responder is very unlikely to hold two spades (if he did he should have bid 2♠), and if he DOES hold two spades, he probably has a super no-trumpy type hand and isn't interested in playing in 4♠ with an eight-card fit. It is probably similar to rebidding after 1♣ 1♠ ?. If you hold 3-card support but a 4333 with KJs, Qs, etc, most people will bid 1NT instead of 2♠.

So in this case, we don't need to find the 6-2 fit and there was no need to bid 3♠. In fact, you might make a more descriptive bid of 3♣ to show where your singleton is, and responder can make an even more informed decision as to whether he doesn't mind playing in a trump suit (if he has ace fourth empty diamond with 2344 this would be a good reason to bid 3♠ now).

[Statto]

 mikeh, on 2012-March-19, 14:10, said:

So spade spade heart is problematic, just as is spade heart spade.

Just nitpicking slightly, both your examples illustrate why ♠♠♥ is problematic, though you cover the other case in the rest of your post

 Quantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 18:00, said:

Except that after this auction, responder is very unlikely to hold two spades (if he did he should have bid 2♠), and if he DOES hold two spades, he probably has a super no-trumpy type hand and isn't interested in playing in 4♠ with an eight-card fit. ...

Why can't responder have 2 ♠ and a single ♣ stop? What's wrong with bidding out the shape to help responder decide the best action/contract?

 Quantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 18:00, said:

... you might make a more descriptive bid of 3♣ to show where your singleton is ...

If you have agreed that, it may be better, but responder still doesn't know if you're 5431 or 6421

[mike777]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 18:00, said:

Except that after this auction, responder is very unlikely to hold two spades (if he did he should have bid 2♠), and if he DOES hold two spades, he probably has a super no-trumpy type hand and isn't interested in playing in 4♠ with an eight-card fit. It is probably similar to rebidding after 1♣ 1♠ ?. If you hold 3-card support but a 4333 with KJs, Qs, etc, most people will bid 1NT instead of 2♠.

So in this case, we don't need to find the 6-2 fit and there was no need to bid 3♠. In fact, you might make a more descriptive bid of 3♣ to show where your singleton is, and responder can make an even more informed decision as to whether he doesn't mind playing in a trump suit (if he has ace fourth empty diamond with 2344 this would be a good reason to bid 3♠ now).

Disagree strongly pard does not bid 2s with only 2s, often. In fact 2s would be a slam try for me.

In fact that is a big reason for 2/1 to be able to bid 2s as a 3 card slam try.


Frankly I thought this was a simple problem...but I see people take a simple basic 2/1 auction and really want to complicate it up.

I am not saying you cannot play 2/1 this way as stated.

[Statto]

 mike777, on 2012-March-19, 20:00, said:

In fact that is a big reason for 2/1 to be able to bid 2s as a 3 card slam try.

3♠ is also available as a slam try, there is still some room. Again, depends on agreements.

[Quantumcat]

 Statto, on 2012-March-19, 19:24, said:

If you have agreed that, it may be better, but responder still doesn't know if you're 5431 or 6421

(You meant 5413/6412 right?) Doesn't matter - a 3♠ bid doesn't force us to play in 4♠. Opener can bid 3NT on a singleton diamond ace or king. If responder bids 3♠ he can't see anywhere else but the 5-2 fit to play if since he thinks 3NT is a bad spot with x opposite empty ace or king in diamonds.
If he can see an alternative, responder has other bids he can make after 3♣ - 3♦ might suggest a good diamond suit (to help decide on 3NT and offering 5♦ as a last-resort contract), 3♥ same but the 4-3 heart fit as a last-resort contract, and of course 3NT if there's still no problem with 3NT. And after these, if opener has a 6-card spade suit he can always bid 3♠.

[Statto]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 20:55, said:

(You meant 5413/6412 right?)

Yeah, sorry I had forgotten the OP hand reading thru and tht 3♣ was some kind of conventional splinter. If it's semi-natural, I think it's more likely to suggest 5413 than 6412 (and if it could by agreement be a 2-card suit, then it needs to be alerted, but you knew that ). But with the ♣ stop I like 3♣ as a way of steering towards a NT contract which may be best

[32519]

 Statto, on 2012-March-18, 20:47, said:

I prefer to show 9 cards rather than 6. There was another thread about 664 vs 646 suggesting the latter should be extras, but in an entirely different context.

You can also show 10-cards in one bid. To be fair though, I have included this hand pattern into my version of the Multi alongside three other hand patterns. The frequency of occurrence is too low to use on its own.

[Codo]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-19, 13:35, said:

Those are or valid points but on the other hand:
1S - 2D
2H - 2N
3S - ?

It's very difficult to have sensible auction here if opener could be anywhere in 11-21 range. You only have a cuebid and 4S available here if you want to play in 6-2 spades and this is too little to be able to judge slams reasonably and not to end up at 5 level too often.

Please explain to me, what 2 NT showed, else I can not understand the problem.
And- depending on the definition of 2 NT, 3 ♠ surely does NOT show 11-21 HCPS, there must be several hands you bid 4 Spade with. (I would with the minimum opening hands, so 3 ♠ is slammish....)

[Zelandakh]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-19, 13:35, said:

Those are or valid points but on the other hand:
1S - 2D
2H - 2N
3S - ?

It's very difficult to have sensible auction here if opener could be anywhere in 11-21 range. You only have a cuebid and 4S available here if you want to play in 6-2 spades and this is too little to be able to judge slams reasonably and not to end up at 5 level too often.

If you were seriously worried about this then you could easily solve it with some artificiality:-
1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 2NT
3♣ = club fragment (5413) or 14-16 with 6 spades
... - 3♦ asks
3♥ = club fragment
3♠ = 6 spades

Then the immediate 3♠ would be split range, 11-13 or 17+.

[MrAce]

I saw a lot of explenations about why ♠♠♥ is a bad bidding and where it has problems. I still didnt see 1 convincing explenation that explains why ♠♥♠ is problematic.

Also

 aguahombre, on 2012-March-19, 12:03, said:

It doesn't show 6 at that particular moment. If partner later finds that you have 4 hearts, then the 2S rebid will have shown 6 in retrospect. Conversely, (for us) if we rebid 2H and then later can show a 6th spade, we have implied extra strength.

You are saying things that doesnt add up to me. Such as "if pd later finds out you have 4 hearts then 2♠ will have shown 6..." Man...And how in the freaking world is he gonna find out that you have 4♥ ?

1♠--2♦
2♠--3♠ After this auction, while going to slam, how will your pd know how many trumps your side has ? How will he know what is your shape since u can be 5323 5224 5422 6322 5125. You have a side 4 card major and he has no idea about it, you have 6 card ♠ he has no idea about it, you may have a side 5 card ♣ he has no idea about it. And this is the auction that is supposed to be your best gain, where you set the trumps (spades) early. Yet pd doesnt know which hcps in his hand are valuable and which are not.

1♠--2♦
2♠--3♥ Lets for t he sake of argument that this 3♥ is natural, Mikeh explained why it would be funny to play this natural and why it is hard to justify. But lets assume this is natural, what will opener bid ? 4♥ ?

Fine now we know he has 6♠+4♥ but oh *****!! We are at 4 level !! What happened to the reasons why we play 2/1 GF ? What happened to all the great tools such as serious or unserious NT cues ? Forget about serious or unserious cues, we dont even have any space left to cue !

1♠--2♦
2♠--2 NT
3♥ This one may work fine, but then you are forcing your pd to bid 2 NT with hands that may not be suitable to bid 2NT. So the method you suggest, not only affecting the 6-4 hands but affecting all other auctions directly. Also when you keep the possibility of having 4 card ♥ in 2♠ bid, you are giving up a lot of advantage from subsequent bids compared to those who denies 4 card ♥ when they bid 2♠. Thus, you are not only misdescribing your 6-4 hands, but also putting a lot of weight into auctions when you dont even have a 6-4 hand or side ♥ suit at all.

1♠--2♦
2♠--3♦
3♥ For example, u will have to play this natural. While others can assign much more useful meanings to it.

1♠--2♦
2♠--3♣
3♥ Same, bidding 3♥ here as natural is bizzare. I know you will argue that you dont have to bid it anymore since responder is unlikely to hold 4 card ♥, but then again since you build up your theory of describing your hand by bidding ♠♠♥, this theory just collapse when u cant bid it for this or that reason. He will still have no idea how many ♠ you have, he will still have no idea whats your side suit.

I hope you're not one of those who believes

1♠--2♦
2♠ is a limit bid. It is NOT. It can be 5332 11 hcp as well as 6313 20 hcp in 2/1.

So you are writing these fancy things that looks good to eye on the paper, while it has little connection with reality imo. To say " I bid ♠♠♥ and pd knows what i have better" is easy, but it is not even remotely true that you will have the ability to do so most of the time.

To summarize

-You will not have the ability to do it in most cases

-When/if you have the ability to do it, you will lose heck of a space just to find a simple 4-4 ♥ fit and after finding you will have gone already to sky level just to make sure pd also knows it.

-Your problems is going to be transfered to other hands also, where opener doesnt even have a side 4 card♥ or 6 card ♠, you will be disabling yourself to use some of the bids since these bids will be reserved to find simple 4-4 ♥ fit in a fancy way.

-When you indeed have a giant hand and rebid 2♠ with 6 of them, all these space that you wasted, and all the bids that you could use for conveniency but disabled you will wish them to be available.

 aguahombre, on 2012-March-19, 12:03, said:

What is very interesting, however is that this discussion eminated from a hand where rebidding 2H instead of 2S actually would have made it more difficult to explore for the right level in spades because at the top of the 3-level, still only one player (responder) finally knows what trump should be.

Man...are you serious ? If you are you are speaking for yourself, i will post the hand here now and so people can decide if what u said is accurate or not.

---

Are you telling me that this hand is difficult to bid if opener rebids 2♥ ?? WoW,,,i mean wow ! North has 14 hcp, by starting with 2♥ he knows he has 10 hcp in opener's suits, and there is a chance that opener is short in ♦, by bidding 2♠ he has no freaking idea if opener is balanced 5323 or 5215 or etc etc. I dont understand why you t hink this auction will be problemativ when opener starts with 2♥, just like i dont understand a lot of things that you say in this topic. But you are still one of my fav posters (i mean it )

[aguahombre]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-20, 04:17, said:

Man...are you serious ? If you are you are speaking for yourself, i will post the hand here now and so people can decide if what u said is accurate or not.

---

Are you telling me that this hand is difficult to bid if opener rebids 2♥ ?? WoW,,,i mean wow ! North has 14 hcp, by starting with 2♥ he knows he has 10 hcp in opener's suits, and there is a chance that opener is short in ♦, by bidding 2♠ he has no freaking idea if opener is balanced 5323 or 5215 or etc etc. I dont understand why you t hink this auction will be problemativ when opener starts with 2♥, just like i dont understand a lot of things that you say in this topic. But you are still one of my fav posters (i mean it )

O.K., I should have said this hand is easier for us because of the timing, and might be more difficult for others.

1S-2D
2S-3S Opener is in the position to activate non-serious, then WOOD when partner cues hearts; signing off at 5 when responder shows we are missing the bullet and the spade queen (or 4-card length where he could pretend the queen).

1S-2D
2H-2S Things are not as simple. On the continuations, whatever they are, Opener needs to be able to cooperate without showing a mountain.

[SimonFa]

 jillybean, on 2012-March-18, 17:04, said:

I look forward to the expert replies.

I can't answer as an expert but I can tell you what the expert we are using as our guide to playing 2/1 says about this situation. Partner and I are using Marty Bergen's 2/1 booklet and I paraphrase:

1. Once in a 2/1 situation you should ignore showing points as distribution is more important eg a reverse of Hs and Ss does not show extra strength but gets your Spade suit in and could be bid on a minimum

2. If you have a 6-4 hand bid it as 646 every time

So in this situation bidding 2H is my reading of his recommendations.