[dboxley]

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I think this hand really belongs in the novice/intermediate forum but my partner wanted me to post it here so that we would get responses only from 'good' players. I know that many of you will say "It depends on our agreements." My real question is "What do you think most expert 2/1 partnerships play?"

1. Never raise on 3
2. Always on 3
3. Depends on the hand

I am firm option 3 follower and I think most experts are but that remains to be seen. The next question is "What is your rebid here?" BTW we play 'up the line', normally responding in a 4 card diamond suit before a 4 card major.

[helene_t]

I think this is a good hand for a 3-card raise since a notrump contract is likely to play better in partner's hand. This is especially true if we don't play Walsh so that we "know" that diamonds is our weakest spot. I would not raise if my diamonds were Kx or Jxx. With xx I would certainly do it. This hand is borderline, as would it be with xxx or Qx of diamonds.

But if I haven't discussed how responder can ask for the degree of fit, I try to avoid 3-card raises. Of course I still raise when there really is no alternative. For example KQx-AKxx-x-Jxxxx.

Anyway, I think "everyone" would answer option 3.

[bluecalm]

Depends on agreement and place in the world.
Some people routinely raise with 3. Some almost never (like Meckwell and Polish pairs). Some only with 5card minor suit (like Italian pairs, it seems to me).
From what I read on this forums I would guess that "American Expert Standard" is to raise with 3 quite often but it's a wild guess.

The hand in question is imo clearcut 1NT. although I like Helene_t point about Walsh, I haven't thought about it.
Still, you need good system after raise to 2S if it's routinely with 3cards and if you start including 4-4-3-2's there it's difficult to handle imo.

If you are looking for advice, mine is: never raise with 3 without 5card minor, that way you will be in world class company and avoid disasters which may easily occur from 3card raises.

[gwnn]

Option 3. Clear no on this hand for me. I agree with bluecalm's reasons, but I don't really think there can be disasters from raising on 3 cards.

[hrothgar]

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.
I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

[jschafer]

It seems likely you will either have an 8-card ♠ fit or a ♦ weakness on this hand, perhaps both. So I quite like the idea of raising ♠s on this hand because ♠ rates to do well either way. Bidding 2♠ also makes it more likely partner will invite with borderline hands since he 'knows' about our ♠ fit, which is a good thing given that this hand is a maximum.

[bluecalm]

I checked my database and I was wrong about Italians. While almost all 3card raises are with 5m, there are some 4-4-3-2, for example this one:
QT6 KQT5 43 AQ74 from Versace, which is exactly what Helene_t described (LV don't play Walsh).

Some other examples:
T94 9743 A7 AKQ6
A87 K973 AQT3 95
AK4 AK98 9863 42
QT2 A762 KQJ4 72

All from Lauria-Versace

As to disasters I think, slam bidding is crippled if you don't very detailed agreements in this spot and might result in ridiculous contracts. I will search my db later to find some examples from real experts

Btw, if you raise with 3, then:

1m - 1M
2M - 3m should promise 5card major.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1NT.

If you regular raise with 3 cards and a bal. shape,
you need to have trial bids in place as follow up to
help you to find out, if you have a 8 card fir or not.

The majority of 2/1 players would most likely bid 1NT
with the given hand, but raising is certainly a popular
option, at the number of peoble doing this is growing.

I will do raising with a 5431 shape.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[dboxley]

hrothgar, on 2012-March-05, 07:12, said:

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.
I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

Actually, good opponents tend to lead diamonds on this auction precisely because we play up the line.

[dboxley]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-05, 07:02, said:

Depends on agreement and place in the world.
Some people routinely raise with 3. Some almost never (like Meckwell and Polish pairs). Some only with 5card minor suit (like Italian pairs, it seems to me).
From what I read on this forums I would guess that "American Expert Standard" is to raise with 3 quite often but it's a wild guess.

The hand in question is imo clearcut 1NT. although I like Helene_t point about Walsh, I haven't thought about it.
Still, you need good system after raise to 2S if it's routinely with 3cards and if you start including 4-4-3-2's there it's difficult to handle imo.

If you are looking for advice, mine is: never raise with 3 without 5card minor, that way you will be in world class company and avoid disasters which may easily occur from 3card raises.

I wasn't really looking for advice but your point of view is certainly welcome. I have never had a disaster raising with 3 but the followups are important and there is no substitute for common sense.

[wank]

i raise on 3 with unbalanced hands.

with balanced hands i normally rebid 1nt and wait for p to checkback, unless it's particularly rich in As/Ks which are suit cards. In england at least this is a fairly normal style among better players and people play 2M+1 as a shape relay.

[pooltuna]

option 3 but no problem here so 1NT

[awm]

With 3-card support and a side Singleton there is a strong expert consensus to raise. Apparently there are still a few who wouldn't (mostly in Poland it seems) but they are a small minority.

Raising on three with a balanced hand is more controversial. I doubt there are experts who will "always raise" barring some agreement that 1M showed five but otherwise the approaches range from "never" to "only with xx or Ax on the side" to "almost any non-4333."

[wyman]

option 3 and 1N for me on this collection. I'm in the "only when I have to" camp of option 3, which means when I have a 5431 typically.

[MrAce]

This is % 100 1 NT rebid for me.

[phil_20686]

I generally raise only on unbalanced three card support.

Supposing that I did raise on balanced 3 card support; then I do think an important issue has been overlooked: Partner is much more likely to make an aggressive game try after a 2S raise than after a 1N rebid. If you are ashamed of your opener you should tend towards 1N, if your hand is maximal tend towards 2S. This hand is a max in tihs context, and imo that is a good reason to bid 2S at teams.

At MP i bid 1N because I am balanced, and also because its likely the contract in the wk nt fields that I play in.

[Phil]

Honor-doubleton, 4432, slow cards. I even have a tenace and a semi-tenace.

Whats not to like about 1N?

[gszes]

number 3

this hand 1n

I prefer to raise with (reasonable) 3 card support
when I have a major problem with 1n.
If my hand were say

KJ9 QJxx xx AQJx

I would bid 2s since I have a fairly
serious concern about dia and the 2s
might make it harder for the opps to
find their dia fit if p is min.

I would also bis 2s with the more
distributional hands shown by others.

The downside of the 2s bid is that we
might be closing out the heart suit and
playing in an anti-field 53 fit vs
44 in hearts I prefer to raise with
3 card support sparingly for that reason
alone.

[MickyB]

wank, on 2012-March-05, 09:53, said:

i raise on 3 with unbalanced hands.

with balanced hands i normally rebid 1nt and wait for p to checkback, unless it's particularly rich in As/Ks which are suit cards. In London at least this is a fairly normal style among better players and people play 2M+1 as a shape relay.

FYP. The best Manchester players tend to raise on three cards a lot, although that's probably due to 4cM/strong NT influences.

Playing 2/1, I raise on three cards in a balanced hand only when I have a low doubleton.

[the hog]

hrothgar, on 2012-March-05, 07:12, said:

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.
I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

I agree with Richard. This hand is a NT rebid. With xx in Ds I would raise to 2M.