[benlessard]

Im wondering what are youre favorites methods when you are near the limit for those who play Sscan or Denials cuebids (DCB)

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http://bridge.downag...od=1HP1SP2DP2SP

the rest is
2S--2nt
3C--3S
4C--4D
4S--4nt
??

2S is art GF,2NT show a balanced hand with 6H or 2722. 3C set keyc in H. 3S is 2 no Q, 4C is bypassing Ks and asking Kc,4D no,4S is Kd ask and 4nt is no. Keeping regular scan

5C asking for Qs
5D ask for Qc
5H soff.

However most of the time asking for extras work better. Im wondering where is your limit for asking specific card rather than general strenght.

[straube]

It seems like it would depend on the hand. If I have a balanced hand, I think I will always want to ask for relay points/controls/strength. In the example above, I would want to ask controls. If a 3 or 2-suited hand is unfortunately captain, then it becomes more advantageous to ask for specific fitting cards.

[Zelandakh]

If I need to ask for strength I set the trump suit and make a frivolous slam try. If I need to find out about quick losers in a side suit I set trumps and make a serious denial cue bid. If all I care about is key cards then I use RKCB, either directly or after some cues. If I know I want to be in slam opposite the right cards but need to scan for them then I keep relaying until I have the relevant information (which will include extras or not). Your problem is simply that your system is based purely around key card asking when other questions should come earlier.

[benlessard]

our range is well defined, in this examples its 11-14 or 18-22 (wich doesnt exist anymore) and for controls we do have some tools is just that they rarely happen. If you cuebid you wont have the space to be able to ask for specific Q before reaching 5 of the limit.

cuebidding before keycarding is inefficient since if you have all the keycards or if partner manage to show the K in your worried suit you dont need to cuebid/ask, also you help opponents on leads more than simply the numbers of keycards, you show them a potentail weakness. The only good thing about cuebids is that its easier to stop at 4 rather than 5, but since these were hands you were looking at 6 with missing a keycards its unlikely you are going down at 5. Also if partner cuebid D (by denials or direct) and ive got the K hes telling me something I might get by is number of keycards.

IMO the important case are
1- you are missing 1 keycards and want to check if you have all the fillers to bid slam. 1a) If you dont have a source of tricks and partner doesnt have the worried suit King you have little hope for a good slam anyway so DCB give little gain vs being able to ask for side K at a lower level. If you do have sources of tricks than asking for a control in the worried suit make sense wich is something very easy to do (but ill play 5 rather than 4)

2- you have all the keycards but missing too much goodies on the side for 6. DCB or reg cueb are almost pointless here. Frivolous/serious or extras simply work better here. But asking for side K work even better.

3- 6 or 7 case, again DCB are pointless.

Im 100% sure that keycarding first is better than cuebidding first (its no close at all IMO and I can bid any 100 hands to convinced you) the problem is that for most keycarding mean bidding 4Nt, not the closest steps. I bid a lot of hands and hands that we bid slam and we are missing AK are quite rare and often its a fair slam anyway sicne its not an easy lead for them. While slam that are good if partner got a specific Q rather than 2 jacks are frequent.

[benlessard]

dp