[VM1973]

ArtK78, on 2011-September-29, 08:19, said:

Indeed. Most players who play 4-suit transfers now play that the bid of the suit by the 1NT opener shows extras (whether defined as a fit or a max opening or both). The bid of the intervening strain is the "negative" call.

Why is that better?

[xxhong]

1D 2D(gf raise)
3C(4+C, extra) 3D(5+D)
3H(cue) 3S(cue)
4C(cue CA) 4D( 6+D)
4H(RKC) 5D(two KC with Q)
5S(SK) 7D(now you know partner shows SK, HK, DAK, CA)

the_dude, on 2011-September-28, 15:08, said:

This came up with my partner in a practice bidding session:

IMPs

---

1NT= 15-17
3♣ = xfer
5NT = choose between 6♦ and 6NT
6♣ = grand slam try .. I have a supermax for diamonds, perhaps we can make 7
7♦ = Partner made a grand slam try without either major suit ace .. surely this is an accept

We got there, but without checking for aces or K/Q trumps, which is a little worrisome. Obviously the culprit is the 5NT bid, so how would you bid it?

(ps: is it clear that 6♣ is a grand slam try and not a 5-6 card suit as an option to play?)

[ArtK78]

VM1973, on 2011-September-30, 11:10, said:

Why is that better?

The primary advantage of this method is that it allows the 1NT opener to be declarer without having to perform some fancy footwork after the "positive" intervening call. This is often important in high level minor suit contracts.

Also, it allows one to use the transfer to diamonds as the weak get out with both minor suits. If opener does not fit diamonds, he bids 3♣ and responder passes. This is a minor point (pardon the pun).

[han]

This seems really easy. You transfer to diamonds, bid 4D (denying shortness), partner bids 4H, you ask for keycards, partner shows 3, try for a grand and partner bids 6S showing the king (he already showed the heart king). That's not science, it's called keycards.

[gnasher]

ArtK78, on 2011-October-06, 22:27, said:

The primary advantage of this method is that it allows the 1NT opener to be declarer without having to perform some fancy footwork after the "positive" intervening call. This is often important in high level minor suit contracts.

That's true on the hands where opener has a fit and we end up in the minor. That is at least partly counterbalanced by the hands where opener doesn't have a fit but we still end up in the minor.
In any case, I don't see this as a big problem. Unless responder's next action is raise his own suit, opener can usually find a way to take the declarership.

There is at least one disadvantage to the "complete with a positive" style: it wrongsides the partscores where rightsiding is most likely to matter. Also, if a positive reply (however you define it) is less frequent than a negative, this style wrongsides more partscores.

[FrancesHinden]

Somewhat off-topic - we've given up playing 2S as clubs and 2NT as diamonds, as the extra step (for opener to show a fit or not) didn't really seem to be gaining anything. The original idea was that you look for a fit to know if the clubs are running in 3NT or not, but mot people just bid game anyway. Instead we use 2NT as clubs, 3C as diamonds and 2S as artificial with various meanings.

[Zelandakh]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-October-08, 12:44, said:

Somewhat off-topic - we've given up playing 2S as clubs and 2NT as diamonds, as the extra step (for opener to show a fit or not) didn't really seem to be gaining anything. The original idea was that you look for a fit to know if the clubs are running in 3NT or not, but mot people just bid game anyway. Instead we use 2NT as clubs, 3C as diamonds and 2S as artificial with various meanings.

One of the early 1NT structures I worked on was like that. I called it (and sometimes still do) 5-suit transfers, since the 2S bid was essentially a 2NT bid with additional hand types attached. Then I realised that 1NT - 2C; 2M - 3C could be used for most of the diamond hand types and switched them out, reclaiming both 3m bids for other purposes. Of course there are also advantages in showing diamonds immediately but I think it is (very) slightly less efficient overall (mainly because you do not need to use 3C after a 2D response).

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-October-08, 12:44, said:

Somewhat off-topic - we've given up playing 2S as clubs and 2NT as diamonds, as the extra step (for opener to show a fit or not) didn't really seem to be gaining anything. The original idea was that you look for a fit to know if the clubs are running in 3NT or not, but mot people just bid game anyway.

I suspect that part of the reason for this was that you used the extra step "for opener to show a fit or not", when you should have been using it for opener to say whether he would accept a one-suited invitation. I don't think it's right to raise to 3NT with xx xxx xx KQxxxx, but I'd still like to get to 3NT opposite Axx AKx Jxxx Axx.