[Phil]

QJx A AKQJ QTxxx

1♥ - x - 1♠ - 2♣
2♠ - ?

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2011-September-05, 01:31, said:

QJx A AKQJ QTxxx

1♥ - x - 1♠ - 2♣
2♠ - ?

4♥ and try to hear 4♠, if bids 4♠ then 4 NT. Pd can not be 0 keycards with his 2♣ bid unless he bid with something like Jxxxxx. So playing 1403 we should be safe.

[BunnyGo]

To make 6♣ I just need partner to have AKxx of clubs and Kx or x of spades. Actually, Having Ax of spades and Axxx of clubs or Kxxx of clubs is also enough. I think I'll cue bid 3♥ here, and if partner can cue 3♠ that's great. I can bid minorwood or kickback, or whatever our agreements to check on keycards before going to slam.

The two problems I have with what I wrote above is that 3♥ may not set clubs as trump, it may be interpreted as a stopper ask for 3NT. Also, if partner can't bid 3♠ then he probably can't bid 3NT, and that's where I'd like to be in this case. There's probably some nice system where 2NT is artificial here and so I can do something nice instead...

I dunno. I'm probably going to regret posting first and looking silly again by disagreeing with every good player who posts next.

[MrAce]

BunnyGo, on 2011-September-05, 02:11, said:

I dunno. I'm probably going to regret posting first and looking silly again by disagreeing with every good player who posts next.

I don't know what good players think but your posts never looked silly to me. If something i would call them honest replies, whether they were right or wrong.

[Fluffy]

partner can easilly have a heart honnor and a club honnor, in that case we might not make any game.

Partner having ♠K+♣AK sounds like a hand from wonderland.

Options:

3M showing a stopper in hearts, partner will bid 3NT with ♠K, and we are safe in 5♣, but 95% of the time he will just bid 4♣ and we don't know what is going on.

3oM showing a stopper in spades, partner will bid 3NT with a heart stopper, and we are already too high and can't stop, this doesn't work.

3♣ asking opponents to follow the law and compete to 3♠ with 9 card fit, the opponents are not highly reliable, but sometimes is the only one you can trust. If parter has 2 spades 130 is likelly our top. If they compete, then we bid 5♣, or even 4♥ for a laugh.

4♣ asking partner to bid 5♣ with an apropiate hand. But does partner know that singleton spade and ♣KJ are good enough? he will feel he has told his hand already with 2♣

5♣, partner raisingto 6♣ with a large success ratio.

I like 3♣ just for its originality.

[Hanoi5]

3♠. Then 4♥.

[whereagles]

I think pard might be the one overbidding here. I'll stick to 3NT for the moment.

[quiddity]

Fluffy, on 2011-September-05, 04:36, said:

3♣ asking opponents to follow the law and compete to 3♠ with 9 card fit, the opponents are not highly reliable, but sometimes is the only one you can trust. If parter has 2 spades 130 is likelly our top. If they compete, then we bid 5♣, or even 4♥ for a laugh.

They might compete with an 8-card fit because of a stiff club.
Any information about the opps, the vul, etc would be useful. Do they play support doubles?
I'm going to assume lefty has 4=5 in the majors. Righty probably has 3 hearts, which means he probably has 5+ spades to respond 1♠ instead of just raising hearts. I think I'd shoot 5♣ here and hope for a club honor and a stiff spade, or maybe a heart lead allowing a pitch on diamonds.

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2011-September-05, 04:36, said:

partner can easilly have a heart honnor and a club honnor, in that case we might not make any game.

Partner having ♠K+♣AK sounds like a hand from wonderland.

Options:

3M showing a stopper in hearts, partner will bid 3NT with ♠K, and we are safe in 5♣, but 95% of the time he will just bid 4♣ and we don't know what is going on.

3oM showing a stopper in spades, partner will bid 3NT with a heart stopper, and we are already too high and can't stop, this doesn't work.

3♣ asking opponents to follow the law and compete to 3♠ with 9 card fit, the opponents are not highly reliable, but sometimes is the only one you can trust. If parter has 2 spades 130 is likelly our top. If they compete, then we bid 5♣, or even 4♥ for a laugh.

4♣ asking partner to bid 5♣ with an apropiate hand. But does partner know that singleton spade and ♣KJ are good enough? he will feel he has told his hand already with 2♣

5♣, partner raisingto 6♣ with a large success ratio.

I like 3♣ just for its originality.

I could not disagree more with every single word you wrote, let alone sentences.

[nigel_k]

I don't think we ever want to play a part score.

If partner has a doubleton spade and we have a club loser, 3NT is best (and hope for 4-4 spades).
If partner has a singleton spade and we have a club loser, 5♣ is best.
If partner has a singleton spade and we have no club loser, 6♣ is best.

There are no guarantees we can find out which but I think 2NT gives us the best chance. Even if partner doesn't regard this as forcing, with a hand where he bid 2♣ but cannot raise to 3NT, he will probably rebid 3♣.

[MrAce]

I do not understand the urge to play 3NT with this hand when pd made a free 2♣ bid. What are the hands that goes down in 5♣ ? 2♠ and a ♣ loser? Then how will you make 3 NT on ♥ lead ? Or on a 1 round ♠ lead and shift to ♥ ? Why are we all assuming pd has ♥K or QJx when he voluntarily bid 2♣ ?

[cherdano]

I would bid 5♣, and predict that the vote will be unanimous.

Ok, I can understand bidding 4♣ only, if you think it is hard to see where the opponents' bids come from if partner has two useful cards for us. But I can't understand being interested in 3NT (if we have a club loser, surely we are down in 3NT unless they pick the wrong major to lead) or 6♣ (with AKK, partner would make an invitational bid, not a simple 2♣).

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-September-05, 14:45, said:

I do not understand the urge to play 3NT with this hand when pd made a free 2♣ bid. What are the hands that goes down in 5♣ ? 2♠ and a ♣ loser? Then how will you make 3 NT on ♥ lead ? Or on a 1 round ♠ lead and shift to ♥ ? Why are we all assuming pd has ♥K or QJx when he voluntarily bid 2♣ ?

We're not assuming it, but if he does have ♠xx and a heart stopper we'd like to be able to be able to get to 3NT.

There's no need to guess the right contract when we have room to explore. When they've bid two suits, it's common to cue-bid the one you have a stop in. Here, however, I'm already expected to have a spade stop, because of the takeout double. I can exploit that by bidding 3♥, showing a heart stop but the inability to bid 3NT. Then:
- With xx Kxxx xx Kxxxx he'll bid 3NT
- With x Kxxx xxx Kxxxx he'll probably hedge with 3♠ and I'll bid 5♣
- With x xxxx xxx AKxxx he'll bid 4♣, I'll cue-bid 4♥, he'll bid 4♠, and I'll drive slam.
- With x xxxx xxx Axxxx I hope he'll be less cooperative, so we end up in 5♣
- With Axx xxx xx Kxxxx (responder having psyched) partner ought to be a bit suspicious of his major-suit lengths, so I think he should eschew 3NT. Even if he does bid 3NT, however, we'll still make on a spade lead. Obviously we'd prefer to be in 6♣, but that might be too hard.

I'm not saying that 3♥ will always get us to the right contract, but it seems a reasonable start, and better than a bid that rules out one of the three possible contracts.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-September-05, 15:35

[Phil]

Partner held AKxxx plus a stiff spade. Is that a surprising hand?

I doubt he'd move over 5♣.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-September-05, 15:31, said:

We're not assuming it, but if he does have ♠xx and a heart stopper we'd like to be able to be able to get to 3NT.

There's no need to guess the right contract when we have room to explore. When they've bid two suits, it's common to cue-bid the one you have a stop in. Here, however, I'm already expected to have a spade stop, because of the takeout double. I can exploit that by bidding 3♥, showing a heart stop but the inability to bid 3NT. Then:
- With xx Kxxx xx Kxxxx he'll bid 3NT
- With x Kxxx xxx Kxxxx he'll probably hedge with 3♠ and I'll bid 5♣
- With x xxxx xxx AKxxx he'll bid 4♣, I'll cue-bid 4♥, he'll bid 4♠, and I'll drive slam.
- With x xxxx xxx Axxxx I hope he'll be less cooperative, so we end up in 5♣
- With Axx xxx xx Kxxxx (responder having psyched) partner ought to be a bit suspicious of his major-suit lengths, so I think he should eschew 3NT. Even if he does bid 3NT, however, we'll still make on a spade lead. Obviously we'd prefer to be in 6♣, but that might be too hard.

I'm not saying that 3♥ will always get us to the right contract, but it seems a reasonable start, and better than a bid that rules out one of the three possible contracts.

You almost convinced me.

I disagree with the most part, except that 3♥ shows ♥ stopper and inability to bid 3 NT.

I disagree that due to initial take out DBL you are expected to have ♠ stopper to begin with. In fact you are not expected to hold anything in ♠ suit with this bid. Of course i know why you want to use 3♥ instead of 3♠ because you want to keep your options open for 5♣, incase he has stiff ♠. But it is far from reality to expect pd to bid 3 NT with hands u suggest him to bid 3NT. Jx AJx AKJ KQJxx is a good example that starts with DBL and then bids 3♥. I dont want my pd to bid 3 NT with a ♥ stopper, i want him to bid 3 NT with ♠ stopper.


If we want to play 3 NT, incase we fear losing 2♠+1♣, we should start with 3♠ imo. That has its own problems as u seem to figured that out and tried to presolved it by 3♥ bid but as i explained.

[JLOGIC]

Partner freely bid clubs and we want to stop in a partscore? lol.

Gnasher, I don't understand what you are saying that partner will bid 3N with 2 small spades if we bid 3 hearts. When did we show a spade stopper? I would X then bid 3H with xx Ax AKQx AQxxx and then partner bidding 3N with 2 small spades and the round kings would work out horribly. Not saying that every auction is perfect but to me cuebidding 3H with spades and hearts as the bid suits by the opps puts the focus on partner having a spade stopper.

It seems to me like bidding 3S showing a spade stopper would be the way to get partner to bid 3N with a heart stopper, but I would think that he would do that with a stiff spade also which would not be good so I wouldn't do that.

[Phil]

By the way, at the table this hand bid 3♠, and partner bid 4♠.

Couldn't pull the trigger and we stopped in 5♣.

[gnasher]

Why doesn't the software let me downvote one of my own posts?

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2011-September-05, 19:19, said:

By the way, at the table this hand bid 3♠, and partner bid 4♠.

Couldn't pull the trigger and we stopped in 5♣.

If you bid 4N over 4S surely partner will go with the AK of clubs? Seems like the only way to miss slam after that start is playing 4N as keycard (why ), and playing 0314 (1430 and you are fine), and then not guessing to bid 6 over 4S (which it seems like you should).

For what it's worth just playing 4N as last train when the last possible cuebid was made and clubs is your suit has been a really money agreement for me, it doesn't lead to accidents since it's clear (though probably suboptimal in some auctions), and works well.