[Orla]

This has come up in discussion a few times and I must say I have problems understanding the logic. So, can somebody explain it to me.

I have 15 points and a 5-card major. My partner responds 2♣/♦. Up to now, I had been responding 3NT, because I had learned that you have game in 3NT with 25pts.

Now, I have learned that 3NT promises more than 15pts.

I was under the assumption that responder could pass 2NT ...

Ok my question is:
What is 1M - 2m - 2NT .... and may partner pass?
What is 1M - 2m - 3NT .... ?

[awm]

This is where it depends somewhat on your basic system and agreements with partner.

It is common to play that 2NT shows extra values and is forcing. This is the style of both SAYC (as defined in the ACBL documents) and Acol. Weaker balanced hands rebid the five-card major at the two-level (which is forcing in SAYC but not in Acol). Playing this style, the 2NT bid gives partner space to continue describing his hand (i.e. rebid a six-card minor or show three-card support for opener's major) at a reasonable level. Thus jumping to 3NT would show either an even stronger hand (maybe 18-19) or perhaps a different style of hand (like a running major).

With that said there are some people who play "standard American" or who really don't know what they play, for whom 2NT is not forcing. For these folks, 3NT shows game values and 2NT is about 12-13. This style of bidding has a lot of disadvantages, in that you use up most of your own space and force responder to guess what to do over a 3NT call that has a pretty wide range of strength.

[Quantumcat]

In Standard, a 2/1 response is only invitational (or better). If you have a balanced hand of 11-12 points and you don't want to accept the invitation, you bid 2NT which responder can pass if he has only 10-12 points.

If you have 13-14 points and a balanced hand, you accept the invitation with 3NT. If you are stronger than this, 15-17, you should have opened 1NT to start with. If you are even stronger, 18+, you will have to make something up. A handy agreement is that, if responder bid a minor, 4 of the minor is a forcing raise, and 4NT is natural (not blackwood) and invitational to 6NT (about 18-20 points).

........


If you rebid your major like the above poster suggests, partner won't know whether 3NT or 4-of-your-major is the best contract, with say two cards and GF values.
He can't bid 3-of-the-major, because that is invitational with three cards;
He can't jump to 4-of-the-major because that could be the wrong contract;
He can't bid 3NT and have partner correct to 4-of-the-major whenever he holds six cards; responder may have wanted to play in 3NT despite opener having 6 cards in his major. Also the contract will be wrong sided.

[1eyedjack]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-09, 19:38, said:

If you have 13-14 points and a balanced hand, you accept the invitation with 3NT. If you are stronger than this, 15-17, you should have opened 1NT to start with.

That assumes that opener is balanced, which is not expressly stated in the OP although perhaps implied by the decision to rebid in NT. Most players have a bit more latitude on distribution when rebidding NT than when opening NT (on occasion due to regulatory requirements).
With, say
♠AK876
♥6
♦5432
♣AKJ
I do not fancy opening 1NT even if 15-17 (I know some who would do so)
Likewise I do not fancy rebidding 3♦ after a 2♥ response

[helene_t]

Orla, you will have to tell us what system you are playing. Otherwise you will get answers based on assumptions of all kind of different systems which will be very confusing.

[ahydra]

Avoiding this confusion is IMO one of the best reasons for playing a weak NT (12-14) - provided you agree that your 2/1 bids show 10+, it's clear then that 1x-2y-2NT is 15-18 (or 15-19), balanced and forcing to game. Note that after this sequence, it's up to responder to invite (eg if he has a good 14+ HCP).

If you play a strong NT (15-17), you should ensure you have good agreements with partner. 2NT as 12-14 and 3NT as 18-19 seems the simple way to do things, but the style described by awm in his 2nd paragraph also seems perfectly sensible.

ahydra

[Fluffy]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-09, 19:38, said:

In my Standard, ........

FYP, it would be better if you don't misslead people who come to this forum to learn with what you think everyone should play. I think you should first learn that your methods are not standard. And that on many aspects of the game there is no standard at all.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Orla,

as already mentioned, the answer to your question is system depend.

As far as I know, you play 5card major "Acol style", i.e. a 2/1 response
is just a one round force.

Ask yourself the question, can responder pass, if the auction goes

1H - 2C
2H - ???

If you say yes, than this implies, that you play 5card major "Acol style".

From this followes, that 2NT just showes 12-14, you basically asume this, if
you believe that 2NT can be passed.
If this is the case, you have to bid 3NT with 15-17.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Quantumcat]

Fluffy, on 2011-May-12, 05:49, said:

FYP, it would be better if you don't misslead people who come to this forum to learn with what you think everyone should play. I think you should first learn that your methods are not standard. And that on many aspects of the game there is no standard at all.

Comparing your post with an article by Eric Rodwell:

You: It is common to play that 2NT shows extra values and is forcing. This is the style of both SAYC (as defined in the ACBL documents) and Acol.

This directly contradicts with these quotes:

- After a 2/1 response, opener shows a balanced hand with a rebid of 2NT. This is a minimum balanced hand with 13 high-card points.

- ...the 2NT rebid would not be forcing.

- Using standard methods, opener has to jump to 3NT, since 2NT is not forcing and opener doesn’t want to stop short of game.


Reference:
An article by Eric Rodwell, comparing opener's rebids after a 2/1 response in Standard and 2/1 Gameforcing:
http://www.betterbri...e/06-200709.pdf

Quote

With that said there are some people who play "standard American" or who really don't know what they play, for whom 2NT is not forcing. For these folks, 3NT shows game values and 2NT is about 12-13. This style of bidding has a lot of disadvantages, in that you use up most of your own space and force responder to guess what to do over a 3NT call that has a pretty wide range of strength.

I agree, and that's why 2/1 Gameforcing was invented. Standard has been improved upon, and the improvements have spawned many a new system. That doesn't change what standard is.

If you play what you are suggesting, where responder has to come up with another bid even if opener rebids 2NT, then you also need to play a forcing notrump, since many hands if they made a 2/1 response, and opener bid 2NT with a minimum, would have to either play in 3 of your suit with a semi-fit or play in 3NT without the values (any five or six card suit with 9-11 HCP). In that case you are basically playing 2/1, perhaps renamed, "2/1 Gameforcing If Semi-Balanced Or Balanced"

[mgoetze]

The question is, how forcing is a 2/1 response. There are 4 possible answers:

(I) Opener must bid again, but there is no force beyond that. Stone-Age ACOL played it this way.
(II) Forcing to 2NT. Blue Club is an example of a system which defines it this way.
(III) Responder promises another bid. SAYC, SEF, Forum D etc. prescribe this.
(IV) Forcing to game (or possibly 3NT, allowing an escape in 4m). An integral part of the "2/1" system, also played by many Polish Club, Precision, etc. pairs.

You need to figure out what system you are playing, then the answer becomes relatively easy:

Quote

What is 1M - 2m - 2NT .... and may partner pass?

(I) 12-14 balanced, and partner may pass.
(II) 12-14 balanced, and partner may pass.
(III) Partner may not pass. Unfortunately, the point range is not clear yet; some play 12-14, others 15-17. I think 15-17 works better with this system, you will have to rebid your major if it is strong or a 3-card minor otherwise. Some people hate doing either of those and thus play 12-14, but the auction becomes messy when they do have a balanced hand.
(IV) Partner may not pass, opener has either 12-14 balanced or 18+ balanced.

Quote

What is 1M - 2m - 3NT .... ?

(I) Something like 15-20 balanced
(II) More like 15-17 balanced, with 18-20 opener will bid more slowly
(III) 15-17 balanced if 2NT shows 12-14, otherwise this bid is free to show something else.
(IV) 15-17 balanced.