Alerting to tell partner how I am bidding
#1
Posted 2011-April-19, 09:55
Puppet Stayman is the most egregious. Partner opens 2N, and I bid 3♣. Well, maybe we forgot to discuss Puppet Stayman on the drive over to the game, but why bother? Partner alerts and I instantly know what his bid means! Furthermore if partner doesn't alert 3♣, I can also draw this inference.
Asking Bids are another. Over the weekend, we faced a pair that played Berkowitz/Manley Precision, but weren't practiced with the other. This auction was perpetrated:
1♣ - dbl - 1♠* - 2♥;
2♠** - pass - 3♦***
- * - 8-13 balanced without the double. Turns out it was 5-7 with spades. NOT alerted.
- ** - alerted
- *** - alerted
(You get the picture)
What about the 'Meckwell' asking bids? 1♣ - 1M - 2M - 2N. Nothing like an alert of 2N to 'tell partner that I need to show trump length / hand strength to 2N'.
The ACBL sort of gets it right by specifically requiring a 2N response to a weak 2 as 'not alerted'. However, if responder is unsure of their system, they have to guess if its 'feature' or 'Ogust'.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
#2
Posted 2011-April-19, 10:35
1C!-1H!
1S!-2C!
...
If you don't ask, it's just noise. Yes, there are cases where if partner doesn't Alert, then "we know we're on a different page in this auction"; but regulating it? Very hard. The best part of my Precision system is that the information-passing part is pretty much irrelevant; If I don't Alert it, I'm passing (or it's a Delayed Alert, or its that one case where we drop off the map).
In the specfic case you mention, it's unfortunate, but 1S showing spades is not Alertable, whereas 1S showing a balanced hand *is* - and it's important that you know which it is (given that your double is also probably Alertable, and might show spades, and you might easily bid 2S (I have a fit)-X -500 into nothing because you "knew" from the last auction that 1S is balanced GF).
And if you're griping about Precision, I'll trade that for 1D-2C!; 2D!-2H!; 2S...in BART, or NMF auctions, or whether they play passed hand psychic controls (oh, I'm sorry, I meant, "Drury"), or complicated 1M-2NT schemes...
There's no difference between 2H-2NT! (were asking bids like this Alertable) and 2H-2NT (as it is in the ACBL); in both cases the *only* thing you can say about the auction is that 2NT isn't natural.
#3
Posted 2011-April-19, 12:50
Why dont we just do away with systems and merely say 'I have 17 HCP 5 ♠ to AKQJ and 1 ♥ 7 ♦ to AK and ♣ void
Make life easier all
round
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#4
Posted 2011-April-19, 15:22
#5
Posted 2011-April-19, 15:46
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#6
Posted 2011-April-19, 16:46
#7
Posted 2011-April-19, 19:05
![:lol:](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I frankly don't see a better alternative. Better/more complete system cards would help, if you can get people to look at them, but they won't solve all the problems.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#8
Posted 2011-April-20, 21:19
It seems like similar logic would apply to things like Puppet Stayman. That's Echognome's point -- during the auction, the opponent doesn't really need to know whether opener is showing 4 or 5 cards when he responds to 3♣, as it's unlikely to change how they bid. But they need to know it after the auction is over.
#9
Posted 2011-April-20, 22:36
barmar, on 2011-April-20, 21:19, said:
The rule in ACBL is that when a bid above 3NT is made, starting with opener's rebid, any alert required is delayed until after the final pass. Other calls (doubles, redoubles and passes) are, when an alert is required, immediately alerted. So there are no cases where a bid which, if it had been made on the first round of bidding would have required an alert, would not require one at all if it were made after the first round.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#10
Posted 2011-April-21, 11:43
Yes, it would, and yes, it does. With the "conventional calls are Alertable with the following exceptions" and "these kinds of treatments do not make the call Alertable" rules of the Alert Procedures being the way they are, the way it would be added, I'm sure, is as one of those exceptions. And while I'm sure it's been raised to the C&C committee before, the proper way to get this "fixed" is to petition the C&C committee.
If they get evidence that this is a real issue for real players (and not just SBs like me, and "I wish I could tell those Precision people not to Alert - they're using the Alerts to stay on the same page" people (not saying that that doesn't happen; but it's not *everybody* playing systemic conventions, and there's a reason why "don't Alert, please" isn't allowed any more)), it's more likely that they'll actually say something about it. And I think it's around time for them to be reviewing the various charts (it's been 10 years, after all).
#11
Posted 2011-April-21, 17:09
![:lol:](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
![:ph34r:](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#12
Posted 2011-April-23, 06:34
I'm not too worried about all the alerts in Precision. They're annoying, but I don't think they give the players much UI. They know from the beginning that they're about to get into a sequence of artificial bids. But as long as we don't make the mistake of asking them about their bids during the auction, they're just as likely to forget the specific meanings of the bids as without the alerts.
#13
Posted 2011-April-24, 02:15
shintaro, on 2011-April-19, 12:50, said:
On the other hand, self-alerting is, as far as I know, normally used only with screens and online, the two environments where you cannot know that your partner has alerted.