[y66]

How much of every dollar of discretionary federal spending goes to the Pentagon?

Spoiler

According to the New York Times, more than 50 cents of every dollar of discretionary federal spending now goes to the Pentagon. Source

[blackshoe]

So there is a five sided building outside of Washington DC that's full of stacks of 50 cent pieces? Cool.

[kenberg]

Quote

Citizenship is an attitude, a state of mind, an emotional conviction that the whole is greater than the part...and that the part should be humbly proud to sacrifice itself that the whole may live.

I had an interchange sometime back about how we make our choices. Probably you know I am a sort of retired college prof. Shortly after I retired a colleague/friend was in the hospital and eventually died. I took one of his classes, and since then I have taught various classes that have needed filling for various reasons. Prof. N came here from the Soviet Union back when it was the Soviet Union. He has a Fields Medal, this makes him a serious star, he's a very good guy, but he has only limited knowledge of how things work here. He knew I had retired and he saw that I was working so he asked "Do they pay you for this?". "Yes, they don't have to pay me much but they have to pay me something otherwise I figure that they don't much want the job done". He got a big smile on his face and he stepped forward and shook my hand. I have come to know quite a few people from the Soviet Union and they invariably take very kindly to such above sentiments as opposed to the "humbly proud to sacrifice" sort.

As for military service, my experience is along the lines of Richard's and I agree entirely that it is the norm. As high school graduation approached I was trying to decide what to do. For reasons both financial and cultural my parents would not be paying college tuition. Maybe I could swing it, or maybe I would join the Navy. I hadn't decided. Then I got a scholarship, that settled the question.

Which brings up another issue. The above was in 1956. Except for the Suez Crisis, which we stayed out of, there wasn't much going on. If we talk about Omaha Beach or Iwo Jima, yeah, we owe those guys a lot. I doubt that even they think that they get to vote and I don't, but yes, we owe them. But why spending, in the mid-fifties, two years on a ship instead of in college would give me some sort of special qualification for super-citizenship is hard to fathom.

[blackshoe]

Of course. It's a matter of experiences, and societal attitudes. Heinlein's society came about, he postulated, because veterans returning from a devastating war filled the gap caused by the collapse of their home governments. They were veterans, they ran the show, they decided that anyone who wanted to help run the show had to be a veteran. We don't have that background, so to us it makes less (or no) sense.

I graduated high school about a decade after you, Ken. By then, anti-war, anti-military sentiment was ramping up, mostly because the young folks who were being drafted saw no point in going off to fight in some tropical hell-hole they knew nothing about, and could not have cared less about. After I came back from Vietnam, the sentiment was pretty close to peak. People reviled those who served. A soldier I knew was accosted in LAX, called "baby killer" and "rapist" and spit on by people who knew absolutely nothing about him save that he was wearing a uniform. The other day I was in the local VA clinic. There was a woman there who was picking up prescriptions for her father in law. We had a short conversation, I got the prescription I was there to pick up, I started to leave. She said "thank you for your service". Times have changed. No doubt the pendulum will swing back the other way eventually, but personally I don't look forward to that.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-20, 13:15, said:

A soldier I knew was accosted in LAX, called "baby killer" and "rapist" and spit on by people who knew absolutely nothing about him save that he was wearing a uniform.

http://en.wikipedia...._Spitting_Image

[blackshoe]

As I said, I knew him. Maybe he made it up, but I have no reason to believe that. And given the reactions I saw after I got back, the story is certainly credible. Nobody spit on me, but I did hear the "baby killer" epithet more than once.

I don't see any reason to consider Lembcke any more credible than my friend, or my own experiences.

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-19, 19:23, said:

There is a discussion in Starship Troopers (in one of Rico's classes in "History and Moral Philosophy") about why their system was set up so that only veterans got the vote. I don't remember all the details, I'll have to see if I can dig it up. IIRC, the "answer" was similar to what you quoted, Richard, about citizenship, and not because of any "psychological conditioning".

I just finished one of J.D. Robb's crime novels (Treachery in Death) in which one of the bad guys was ex-military, of just the type you fear. He followed orders, without question, even when the orders were to kill people (he was a cop, and he was told to kill other cops, so he did it, no questions asked). But there's that thing our Founders talked about - an informed electorate. Rico's society's emphasis on studying "History and Moral Philosophy" was supposed to provide an electorate whose members would do the morally correct thing, rather than simply following orders. Granted it's an ideal, and maybe (probably?) not achievable in the real world, but like you I keep thinking "it sure would be nice if..."

I tend to mistrust anything with the word "Keynesian" attached to it, but I have to admit the argument that, long term, ever increasing military spending is a Bad Thing™ seems to make some sense to me.

I understand why an expression like Military Keynesianism is distrusted - it is similar to the reason Military Industrial Complex is shrugged off, which to me is because it was introduced to modern society in Oliver Stone's conspiracy movie, JFK, so it is "guilt by association" thinking by many to link the phrase with conspiracy ideas and fiction, when the original speech was neither.

But automatically rejecting the tern Military Industrial Complex is like rejecting the basis of military keynesianism, and if you go back and either listen to or read Ike's speech, put the ideas into the context of the times it was made, it sounds like a persuasive explanation for what has gone wrong in the U.S. since 1960.

At least, that is how I see it.

[cherdano]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-19, 16:09, said:

*Heinlein suggested a couple of things: only "veterans" get police/fire (and possibly other) jobs; only veterans get to vote. Not sure those (particularly the latter) would work in our society, but I suppose they provide a starting point for discussion.

Wow blackshoe. As you probably know I disagree with your political posts almost always, but this is really below any reasonable level for discussion, not a starting point.

[blackshoe]

You disagree, Hrothgar disagrees. Both of you refuse to discuss it. The thread title asks "is discussion possible?" It seems your answer is "no". So be it. We aren't going to solve the country's problems here, anyway, and I have better things to do than beat my head against the wall. I'm outta here.

[cherdano]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-21, 06:08, said:

You disagree, Hrothgar disagrees. Both of you refuse to discuss it. The thread title asks "is discussion possible?" It seems your answer is "no". So be it. We aren't going to solve the country's problems here, anyway, and I have better things to do than beat my head against the wall. I'm outta here.

If I were to suggest that veterans are not allowed to vote, I would be pretty sure you would not want to discuss that with me either.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-21, 06:08, said:

You disagree, Hrothgar disagrees. Both of you refuse to discuss it. The thread title asks "is discussion possible?" It seems your answer is "no". So be it. We aren't going to solve the country's problems here, anyway, and I have better things to do than beat my head against the wall. I'm outta here.

In what way am I refusing to discuss "it"

Ken started a thread about the budget.

You suggested "Only veterans should be allowed to vote" as a thought experiment which didn't go over particularly well.

Later, you yourself posted

Quote

Heinlein's society came about, he postulated, because veterans returning from a devastating war filled the gap caused by the collapse of their home governments. They were veterans, they ran the show, they decided that anyone who wanted to help run the show had to be a veteran. We don't have that background, so to us it makes less (or no) sense.

Which strongly suggests that even you don't take this idea seriously.

• You already concede that Heinlein's bloviating isn't comprehensible outside the cultural context of science fiction model
  
• In turn, this means that it isn't a serious suggestion for the practical problems addressing the US body politic

Now you're taking all your toys and going home because the other children are being mean...

As I noted in a parallel thread "Grow up". If you want to be taken more seriously in these threads you might want to start by engaging with the real world rather than science fiction novels.

[PassedOut]

To me, it's a positive thing that the Republicans and Democrats have launched the debate on how the US should deal with the deficit that has developed since Clinton left office. Jacob Weisberg offers his take on this in Slate: How Paul Ryan's flawed budget plan has improved the debate over our fiscal future.

Quote

Ryan's plan was also useful in part because it prompted President Obama to show some cards of his own. Obama's big deficit speech last week was a meaningful step in the direction of liberal fiscal honesty and represented a breakthrough for him in two big ways. It was the first time the president has seriously confronted our long-term fiscal problem with meaningful specifics. And it was the first time he has put forth a coherent vision of government's role. Obama matched Ryan's $4 trillion in projected deficit reduction over the next decade, relying less on implausible spending cuts and more on increased revenues.

I don't much care what taxes go up nor what spending gets cut. Well, maybe I do care some about that, but I care much more that taxes and spending are brought roughly into balance.

By the way, if you missed Obama's speech, you can find it here: Improving America's Fiscal Future.

[kenberg]

I think taxes have to go up. I expect that to include my taxes. I will have to be convinced that it will not be only my taxes that are rising.

The discussion about military service is not wholly off the mark, I think, in that it speaks to obligation. Having got my scholarship and gone off to college in 1956 I naturally took a student deferment. This wasn't to avoid going to war, there wasn't a war. It's just that college had become the plan.I was finishing my Ph.D. a decade later and of course now there was a big war. My deferment was yanked and I was re-classified 1-A. But I was older and I was not their prime choice. Anyway, I wasn't running off to Canada but neither was I running down to the recruiting station to sign up to shoot some gooks. Again, this was very much the norm. People got their summons from the draft board, they went. If they didn't get it, they didn't volunteer. Yes there were exceptions both ways, but I am describing standard practice.

As with military service, taxes is an obligation we accept in support of a country that really has done pretty well by me and many others. I went to the University of Minnesota when the tuition was about $225 a year, meaning maybe 150-170 working hours at prevailing wages (this is why it seemed possible I might manage even before the scholarship). Tax money kept the tuition affordable. As a graduate student I was partially supported on various grants. Later I received research grants from the National Science Foundation. I currently have a project jointly funded by NSF and NSA. As a professor I was paid from Maryland tax dollars.

We of course need to be prudent. But the idea that a modern nation can succeed simply by letting corporations do their thing and having government just get out of the way strikes me as totally unrealistic.

Deficits do matter and the books, long term, have to balance. So let's get with it. But let's not pretend we are still cowboys riding the range.

Just as a comment, my wife wants to see Atlas Shrugged. From everything I heard, we had better do it soon if we want to see it in the theater.

[y66]

Anyone who claims balancing the books is urgent and raising taxes is not an option speaks with forked tongue.

I agree with the spirit and content of kenberg's last post. I also took the earlier post about military service as speaking more to obligations of citizenship in general than membership in the armed services. But maybe I read too much into that.

[blackshoe]

No, you didn't.

[kenberg]

Good.

Now can we get those guys in office to earn their pay and do something useful?

[helene_t]

According to Salon.com, one of the republicans presidential candidates is especially apt at dealing with the budget crisis:
http://www.salon.com...dent_we_deserve

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2011-April-22, 04:02, said:

According to Salon.com, one of the republicans presidential candidates is especially apt at dealing with the budget crisis:
http://www.salon.com...dent_we_deserve

Yes indeed. Richard is thinking Cost Rica, I'm partial to Norway. I was brought up with lots of snow.

As to "the president we deserve", I may have mentioned before that one Christmas my wife's ex-husband sent us a card wishing us everything we deserved.

[kenberg]

This is not deep but I found it amusing:

http://www.washingto...SICE_story.html

[Winstonm]

Today's must-read: http://www.nytimes.c...ckman.html?_r=1

Quote

In attacking the Bush tax cuts for the top 2 percent of taxpayers, the president is only incidentally addressing the deficit. The larger purpose is to assure the vast bulk of Americans left behind that they will be spared higher taxes — even though entitlements make a tax increase unavoidable. Mr. Obama is thus playing the class-war card more aggressively than any Democrat since Franklin D. Roosevelt...

Quote

Trapped between the religion of low taxes and the reality of huge deficits, the Ryan plan appears to be an attack on the poor in order to coddle the rich. To the Democrats’ invitation to class war, the Republicans have seemingly sent an R.S.V.P.