[mr1303]

It does seem very strange to me that different worldwide organisations have very different rules and regulations regarding permitted bidding systems etc.

My local club has a fairly poor standard of player for the most part, and yet somewhere in the region of 80% of the pairs have the multi-coloured 2D on their convention card (true the majority don't have any idea how to use it effectively, but still).

These same pairs go on holiday to the USA and they can't play their system any more. Which seems a bit daft to me.

In most sports, teams from around the world all pretty much play the same rules. A football match in England is played under (as far as I am aware) the same rules as a football match in Germany, Brazil or anywhere else. Why not in bridge?

I am aware that the WBF exists with yet another set of rules, which again seems pointless. Why is it that the major organisations can't have a discussion amongst themselves and agree on 1 set of rules that everyone plays under. How hard can it be?

[hrothgar]

mr1303, on 2011-February-19, 18:25, said:

Why is it that the major organisations can't have a discussion amongst themselves and agree on 1 set of rules that everyone plays under. How hard can it be?

While they're at it, they should probably also standardize on one language...

[Hanoi5]

And only one government and economic system.

[bluejak]

Which set of rules do you suggest? Do you really want to play by American rules? Or do you honestly think ht Americans are going to follow our rules?

[BunnyGo]

mr1303, on 2011-February-19, 18:25, said:

In most sports, teams from around the world all pretty much play the same rules. A football match in England is played under (as far as I am aware) the same rules as a football match in Germany, Brazil or anywhere else. Why not in bridge?

Because we also have different rules for football here in the US.

[barmar]

I think this is as likely to happen as getting everyone in the world to believe in one religion. And for pretty much the same reason.

[pran]

From a comic strip with Haggar the Viking in conversation with a Monk:
Monk: There will be no peace until all men learn to understand each other
Haggar: True... true...
Haggar (continues): How are we going to get everybody to speak Norwegian?

(I have tried to attach the original strip - it seems to work)

Attached File(s)

•  Peace.jpg (114.49K)
  Number of downloads: 35

[Vampyr]

mr1303, on 2011-February-19, 18:25, said:

Why is it that the major organisations can't have a discussion amongst themselves and agree on 1 set of rules that everyone plays under. How hard can it be?

While it is nice to be able to accommodate foreign visitors, the overwhelming majority of bridge players in any country are the residents. So the system regulations are, and should be, aimed to please the local punters.

[aguahombre]

BunnyGo, on 2011-February-19, 20:28, said:

Because we also have different rules for football here in the US.

I smiled.

[mr1303]

I would agree that the regulations should be aimed to please the local punters.

Where I disagree is with the premise that the average bridge player would want different rules and regulations

[gwnn]

Nobody wants "different rules". Everybody wants their own rules. Barmar's analogy to the unified world religion seems basically perfect and there's not much to add. Do average churchgoers want "different religions"? Hardly.

[Quantumcat]

Australia is liberal and encouraging of bridge innovations and I would hate for that to change. Nobody here could agree to our regulations becoming restrictive.

On the other hand the US is petrified of innovations and won't let you play anything. I don't think anyone could make their fears go away overnight.

I don't know where other countries stand but probably somewhere in-between.

Maybe there could be a "non-US" set of regulations and a "US" set of regulations. Much like the metric system, invented in 1668, now adopted by the whole world and the US still hasn't caught up to it :-) If world-class internationals start getting used to being able to play their systems wherever and whenever they want to outside the US, and US events stop attracting them, they might be encouraged to relax their regulations!

I think americans who are afraid of new systems are only like that because of the culture of the place they learned bridge in. If the culture changes, so will people's attitudes. I think the restrictions only endure because of the mass attitudes, but those attitudes are determined by the regulations... a vicious cycle difficult to get out of!

[Vampyr]

Quantumcat, on 2011-February-21, 00:03, said:

Maybe there could be a "non-US" set of regulations and a "US" set of regulations.

There already is, with respect to a lot of systems and conventions that are popular in various parts of the world.

Quote

If world-class internationals start getting used to being able to play their systems wherever and whenever they want to outside the US, and US events stop attracting them, they might be encouraged to relax their regulations!

And this would be what? A good thing? Because it would suit you, an occasional visitor, rather than the tens of thousands who live in the USA, Canada, Mexico, and Bermuda, and play there every day?

[paulg]

Quantumcat, on 2011-February-21, 00:03, said:

If world-class internationals start getting used to being able to play their systems wherever and whenever they want to outside the US, and US events stop attracting them, they might be encouraged to relax their regulations!

Almost all world-class internationals are professional bridge players and their view of the world is quite different to a non-professional. The US is currently the most lucrative marketplace for them and rates of pay, length of contract, together with the dollar exchange rate for some, feature highest on their list of requirements, not system regulations.

The number of foreign professionals attending US events has increased dramatically over the past decade. At the same time, attendance levels seem to be dropping and it seems unlikely that the ACBL will do anything to alienate the vast majority of its members. As you say, they are in a hard place.

[hrothgar]

paulg, on 2011-February-21, 13:36, said:

At the same time, attendance levels seem to be dropping

Do you have any firm numbers here?

I keep meaning to track attendance over time for the ACBL National, however, I never seem to have the right motivation at the right time...

As an example, I have today off from work... I have plenty of time, but zero motivation.
Tomorrow, I'll be back at work and have plenty of motivation (but very little time)

[Quantumcat]

Attendance levels are dropping all over the world. Bridge is a dying game. It would be more interesting if you knew whether attendance levels were dropping faster or slower than in other parts of the world.

[paulg]

hrothgar, on 2011-February-21, 13:43, said:

Do you have any firm numbers here?

I keep meaning to track attendance over time for the ACBL National, however, I never seem to have the right motivation at the right time...

As an example, I have today off from work... I have plenty of time, but zero motivation.
Tomorrow, I'll be back at work and have plenty of motivation (but very little time)

No numbers at all. But I don't see organisers boasting that numbers have increased very often.

[Free]

mr1303, on 2011-February-19, 18:25, said:

I am aware that the WBF exists with yet another set of rules, which again seems pointless. Why is it that the major organisations can't have a discussion amongst themselves and agree on 1 set of rules that everyone plays under. How hard can it be?

If anyone will come up with rules for the entire world, shouldn't it be the WBF? For example, nobody cares about ACBL rules and the ACBL doesn't care about anybody elses rules, so how can you get everyone on the same line? It's not like all countries come together once a year to discuss system regulations. Imo the only way is to look at a higher level to come up with something, like the WBF.

The WBF uses a general set of rules to categorize systems with colour codes. Next to that, every country could create general classes of events, which allow certain colours (for example: A = only green, B = only green and blue,...). Beginner tournaments would certainly get class A for example. So while the basic definitions of colour codes are strict, system restrictions by events are still flexible.
Obviously it's not easy to define all this, but imo the WBF did a good job. The biggest problem I see with the current definitions is Polish Club. It's considered RED, which contains pretty much everything apart from HUM's. So Poland would have to allow pretty much everything at all levels. This is exactly what makes all of this rather difficult: for Poland, Polish ♣ is standard, while in most other countries pretty much nobody plays Polish ♣. As a result most other countries want to allow this only at higher levels.
- Should Polish ♣ be an exception and be considered GREEN? No, because many countries only want to allow this at higher levels.
- Should Polish ♣ be an exception and be considered GREEN only in Poland? No, because now every country will make up it's own definitions of GREEN systems, and we're back at where we are right now.
- Should Polish ♣ be considered RED like currently the definitions? No, because that creates problems for Poland.
I guess there should be another colour code. We have BLUE for strong ♣ systems, perhaps a new colour for multiway ♣ systems (Polish, Swedish, Fantunes,...) could solve the problem.

Note that the WBF rules are actually used in some countries, for example Belgium. If more and more countries would pick up these general set of rules, we might converge to fewer sets of system regulations all over the world.

EDIT: I don't think 1 set of rules is a good idea, I only wanted to disagree with the statement that WBF rules are pointless. And IF someone wants to get to 1 set of rules the WBF is the way to start imo.

[bluejak]

Free, on 2011-February-23, 08:55, said:

If anyone will come up with rules for the entire world, shouldn't it be the WBF? For example, nobody cares about ACBL rules and the ACBL doesn't care about anybody elses rules, so how can you get everyone on the same line? It's not like all countries come together once a year to discuss system regulations. Imo the only way is to look at a higher level to come up with something, like the WBF.

The WBF uses a general set of rules to categorize systems with colour codes. Next to that, every country could create general classes of events, which allow certain colours (for example: A = only green, B = only green and blue,...). Beginner tournaments would certainly get class A for example. So while the basic definitions of colour codes are strict, system restrictions by events are still flexible.
Obviously it's not easy to define all this, but imo the WBF did a good job.

First, it is not obvious to me at all that they did a good job.

Second, their efforts are clearly aimed at higher level players, not unreasonably in view of the tournaments they hold.

Third, their rules are a long way from some countries', eg England's, so you are talking of upsetting a very large number of people. Why? What for? So some people can play in other countries? I have played in Australia, Netherlands, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Canary Islands, Sweden, Eire, France, Cyprus, Tunisia, Egypt, USA and South Africa and I see no problem whatever with using other Regulations. I am just not selfish enough to expect to play my own countries' Regulations there.

[Vampyr]

Free, on 2011-February-23, 08:55, said:

- Should Polish ♣ be an exception and be considered GREEN? No, because many countries only want to allow this at higher levels.
- Should Polish ♣ be an exception and be considered GREEN only in Poland? No, because now every country will make up its own definitions of GREEN systems, and we're back at where we are right now.
- Should Polish ♣ be considered RED like currently the definitions? No, because that creates problems for Poland.
I guess there should be another colour code. We have BLUE for strong ♣ systems, perhaps a new colour for multiway ♣ systems (Polish, Swedish, Fantunes,...) could solve the problem.

I have another idea. Countries using the WBF regulations (more or less) could add their own colours, which would be clearly defined:
egPURPLE = WBF GREEN + x, y and z.
ORANGE = WBF BLUE + x, y and z.

Quote

Note that the WBF rules are actually used in some countries, for example Belgium. If more and more countries would pick up these general set of rules, we might converge to fewer sets of system regulations all over the world.

Yes, but probably not until the above problem is solved, ie disagreement between countries about which systems should be GREEN or BLUE.


Actually, new colours should probably be called "BLUE+" or "GREEN+". Much less confusing for people, eg foreigners, who are familiar with the WBF classification system.

This post has been edited by Vampyr: 2011-February-23, 09:18