[mike777]

well to be fair to judge nfb you cant bid them on garbage....a garbage suit or hand but still good pts against nfb.

For example the OP hand at fav vul is a minimum nfb for me.

[Cascade]

mfa1010, on 2011-January-12, 18:19, said:

I have always thought badly about NFB's and never wanted to play them. For the reasons given by other posters (and Rodwell) and because my opponents always seem to have so many trouble with them, even decent opponents. Mostly with the omnibus double, but also when one bids a NFB with QTxxx and the other passes with a small singleton and stuff like that.
Since I have never given them a try myself I can't reasonably be too critical though.

When i play negative free bids I almost never make a free bid with QTxxx

[Cascade]

mike777, on 2011-January-12, 18:26, said:

For example the OP hand at fav vul is a minimum nfb for me.

Me too.

[OleBerg]

Ranting on; how about this (MP's only):

1♥ - (2♣) - ???

X = Negative.
2♦ = NFB in spades (Rightsides when we are weak, and do not preempt partner with good hearts and misfit.)
2♥ = Support
2♠ = 10+ (or 12+) with spades
2NT = 4-card heart support
3♣ = 3-card heart support
3♦ = Natural, strongly suggesting that we do not play 3NT. (4-x-5-x will start with a double, and forget about the 5.th diamond.)
3♥ = Preemptive or whatever
3♠ = Transfer to 3NT, rightsiding. (Insidious follow-ups are optional.)
3NT = Whatever 3♠ used to mean

[dake50]

The neg free bid of 2C doesn't have any downside here.
I really want to suggest clubs to partner.
I have 6-suit, so the shy of GF-points may balance out.
My partnership has a general force in addition to negX. Little sorting out.
Partner now can make a well-informed decision.
1D <1H> 2C -> now I'm ok with most developments.

[awm]

I've tried playing negative free bids at various points. Exactly what the problems are depends on what range of strength/shape you ascribe to the negative free bid.

My general experience is that you have to be willing to accept that you will:

(1) Play 5-1 fits sometimes on the auction 1X-overcall-NFB on 5-card suit-All pass. At least the five-card suit will be decent.
(2) Miss games sometimes with 14/15-opposite-10/11 on the auction 1X-overcall-NFB-all pass.
(3) Have some awkward sequences when responder has a game-forcing hand, especially when opponents raise the overcall.

In exchange, you do get good very results when responder has a one-suited hand in the 6-9 point range.

Personally I've not found this tradeoff to be worthwhile in general. However, I think it has substantial merit in sequences where opener is extremely likely to hold a minimum balanced hand like after opening a precision 1♦ or polish 1♣. Transfers are another option in these situations which may be even better though.

[y66]

rogerclee, on 2011-January-12, 03:42, said:

This hand is pretty complicated, but the most important thing to realize is that 3C is a ridiculous underbid.

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-12, 04:13, said:

3C is awful.

han, on 2011-January-12, 11:25, said:

3C?

3C is ridiculous / awful / questionable because?

Spoiler

Pard is showing a shapely hand with at least a king more than a minimum opening. He's not unlimited but he can easily have a really good hand. Since we would bid 3C with xxx xxxx x xxxxx we have to bid something else now to tell pard we have such an incredible hand in the context of our first call.

[Cascade]

awm, on 2011-January-13, 16:17, said:

I've tried playing negative free bids at various points. Exactly what the problems are depends on what range of strength/shape you ascribe to the negative free bid.

My general experience is that you have to be willing to accept that you will:

(1) Play 5-1 fits sometimes on the auction 1X-overcall-NFB on 5-card suit-All pass. At least the five-card suit will be decent.
(2) Miss games sometimes with 14/15-opposite-10/11 on the auction 1X-overcall-NFB-all pass.
(3) Have some awkward sequences when responder has a game-forcing hand, especially when opponents raise the overcall.

In exchange, you do get good very results when responder has a one-suited hand in the 6-9 point range.

Personally I've not found this tradeoff to be worthwhile in general. However, I think it has substantial merit in sequences where opener is extremely likely to hold a minimum balanced hand like after opening a precision 1♦ or polish 1♣. Transfers are another option in these situations which may be even better though.

(1) Its not compulsory to bid a five-card suit. In fact we seldom do.
(2) This can happen but usually this will be in misfit auctions where sometimes 15+11 is not enough for game.
(3) Yes it happens

You certainly get great results when responder is 6-9 hcp single suited. Most often when a fit has been found but also at times when no fit has been found and we are in and out of the auction quickly.

Curiously we play these in a weak no trump context where after 1suit (overcall) 2newsuit - opener never has a minimum balanced hand. My experience is that they work great in that context. Opener always has i/ a strong balanced hand, ii/ a distributional hand with a fit, iii/ a distributional hand without a fit (and passes with a minimum or has enough strength to make some other bid). None of these situations have significant downsides.

[Cyberyeti]

y66, on 2011-January-13, 20:43, said:

3C is ridiculous / awful / questionable because?

Spoiler

Pard is showing a shapely hand with at least a king more than a minimum opening. He's not unlimited but he can easily have a really good hand. Since we would bid 3C with xxx xxxx x xxxxx we have to bid something else now to tell pard we have such an incredible hand in the context of our first call.

No, with that hand we bid 2N Lebensohl and pass pard's 3♣, 3♣ already shows some sort of hand. Clearly if you're not playing Leb you can't bid 3♣, but a lot of good pairs do play Leb here.

[y66]

Surely, if you were playing Leb here, it would be alerted.

[dake50]

When does West admit any values?
3C could be nada.
5C>4H could not want to defend 4H. Eg. shapely C:KJxxxx

[Cyberyeti]

y66, on 2011-January-14, 06:09, said:

Surely, if you were playing Leb here, it would be alerted.

Should be, but in my experience almost never is when you bid the 3♣ "good".

And also the question was how do YOU bid these, and is definitely leb for us.

[FrancesHinden]

awm, on 2011-January-13, 16:17, said:

Transfers are another option in these situations which may be even better though.

Now you're talking.
I play transfers after virtually all overcalls to try and get the best of both worlds (I don't play quite the same scheme as gnasher however as I prefer to keep a natural 1NT bid).
It seems strange to me that so many posters think it's virtually standard to play transfers after 1H (x) but not after, say, 1D (1H). The auctions are different, but the fundamental advantages of transfers are still there.

[ewleongusa]

Hanoi5, on 2011-January-12, 03:01, said:

---

Mp's. (Any difference if imp's?).

Why bid just 3C? Opposite a minimum double such as S Axxx H x D Axxx C Axxx, 5C is an excellent contract.
Surely, at least a 4C bid is called for.

Eric Leong

[dboxley]

Hanoi5, on 2011-January-12, 03:01, said:

---

Mp's. (Any difference if imp's?).

The bidding was reasonable until West's 5C bid (I might have bid 4C instead of only 3) but when East can compete to the 4 level over the forced 3C bid, West's hand is obviously worth bidding 6C. West 100% of the blame. I wish I could give him more.