[Cascade]

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MPs (Edit: Scoring added)

Eleven tricks were made - finessing spade, ♥K onside and establishing the diamonds.

How do you assign the blame?

[TimG]

8 losers + 9th trump suggests to me that south should bid game.

[655321]

Was this IMPs or MPs?

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

[Cascade]

655321, on 2010-December-07, 21:51, said:

Was this IMPs or MPs?

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

Sorry MPs

[MrAce]

655321, on 2010-December-07, 21:51, said:

Was this IMPs or MPs?

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

Amen

EDIT: i wanted to vote mainly North but i guess i clicked "entirely North"

[rduran1216]

South 80%

His 5th spade, well placed Q of Hearts, good trumps are all reasons to go. He'd rather have a stiff club than diamond, but even at these colors the 5th trump + shape make this a clear 4S bid to me.

North is close to a 4C bid, which south will love.

[mtvesuvius]

Mostly North. South's pass is "reasonable" at MPs (and NV), however North's bidding is just plain bad. If you don't splinter with the North cards, when will you?!

[rduran1216]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-December-07, 23:47, said:

Mostly North. South's pass is "reasonable" at MPs (and NV), however North's bidding is just plain bad. If you don't splinter with the North cards, when will you?!

when I have decent major suit cards.

Whats to stop South from having bad trumps? You have to suspect at least 1 trump loser possibly 2. With a likely 4441 spades distribution getting our diamonds set up after a heart lead is gonna be tough.

All E needs is QJ10x spades and KQxx in hearts for 4S to be in bad shape

South is the one who knows trumps are not an issue and that he's got a heart card.

I think 4C is making the decision for your partnership, and it could be down VERY easily.

[Cascade]

Maybe I should add this is in a weak NT context so that north could be 17 or maybe even 16 balanced.

[the hog]

North's bidding was 100% correct. South is a bean counter, who felt he didn't see enough beans. He probably had one eye closed. Totally agree with rduran - a splinter is poor.

[mikeh]

Cascade, on 2010-December-08, 00:07, said:

Maybe I should add this is in a weak NT context so that north could be 17 or maybe even 16 balanced.

I think, with respect, that this is critical. A single raise will show either an unbalanced hand or a 15-16 1NT rebid, so a jump raise is often played as very strong...in my two weak nt partnerships, the N hand would be within that range, albeit towards the top. But the point is that it is in the range. In that context, S wears the blame.

Playing strong notrumps, I think the blame would be split, but don't actually think there is a huge amount to go around at mps. I think both bid conservatively, and that usually works out poorly...either could have bid aggressively and that would have saved the board.

[hotShot]

Unless 3♠ is agreed to be preemptive, I blame South.

North can't have all his values in ♠ since South has KJ himself.
We seem to have a a good ♠ fit and since South has 4♥ opps fit is more likely in ♣ than in ♥ or ♦.
If opps have 8+ cards in ♣ ] than North can only have 2-
So in a worst case scenario. North has 10 HCP in ♦ and 6 in ♠ and opps can draw 4 top tricks in ♣ and ♥, but would North really jump to 3♠ with something like:

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[Cascade]

hotShot, on 2010-December-08, 02:52, said:

Unless 3♠ is agreed to be preemptive, I blame South.

North can't have all his values in ♠ since South has KJ himself.
We seem to have a a good ♠ fit and since South has 4♥ opps fit is more likely in ♣ than in ♥ or ♦.
If opps have 8+ cards in ♣ ] than North can only have 2-
So in a worst case scenario. North has 10 HCP in ♦ and 6 in ♠ and opps can draw 4 top tricks in ♣ and ♥, but would North really jump to 3♠ with something like:

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Yes I think so.

It is interesting but in contrast to Mikeh's style I think a 3-level jump raise here is nominally played as 16-18. And many would upgrade some weaker distributional hands.

So maybe my thread title was incorrect and this is much more to do with system style than judgement.

[marcD]

I think no blame at MP. North is within range for 3♠ and South has a marginal 4♠ call at MP (singleton D does not look good even in a weak Notrump system). I think 4♣ by North is an overbid although I would definitely bid 4♠ over 2♥ showing 5S4H 5-9 which would be standard in some fields .

[Cascade]

marcD, on 2010-December-08, 03:04, said:

I think no blame at MP. North is within range for 3♠ and South has a marginal 4♠ call at MP (singleton D does not look good even in a weak Notrump system). I think 4♣ by North is an overbid although I would definitely bid 4♠ over 2♥ showing 5S4H 5-9 which would be standard in some fields .

Indeed one of the problems for south on the actual auction was that his ♥Qxxx is of dubious value.

[han]

100% blame to north, 20% to south.

[MrAce]

han, on 2010-December-08, 04:40, said:

100% blame to north, 20% to south.

Man...I admire your generosity with splitting the percentage

[han]

Well, it doesn't seem right to assign north less than 100% for that 3S bid. On the other hand, south could definitely have bid 4S.

[gwnn]

both, even if you're counting points North has 16+1(aces)+3(singleton), and even if you're counting points South has good trumps and 54 and why not play game when it's close?

90% North 70% South

[hotShot]

Cascade, on 2010-December-08, 03:03, said:

Yes I think so.

It is interesting but in contrast to Mikeh's style I think a 3-level jump raise here is nominally played as 16-18. And many would upgrade some weaker distributional hands.

So maybe my thread title was incorrect and this is much more to do with system style than judgement.

If this is a 3♠ bid

K&R (AQ32 432 AKQJ 32) = 16.40

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probably this has to be a 4♠ bid, as it is about a K stronger.

K&R (A763 A54 AKJ54 2) = 19.30

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